Results from the Poll re: the name ' Laegolas' in the Fall of Gondolin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

aravanessë · 02-12-2007, 03:05 PM

Positive arguments? What is it? Arguments in favour of Legolas (not against the other suggestions) ?

Quote:

My reason for this is not linguistcal but purely for reasons of possible interpretetion, which we should not contradict: I am not as sure as other members in the forum that Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Grennwood are diffrent elves. That is not saying that I am absoltue sure that they are one and the same, but I see a possibilty that they could be (and a chance much greater than one to a billion, which Lindil once mentioned). Therefore I think our text should be ambigious in this matter. That would allow a linguistcal change like {Legolas}[Laegolas] but nothing more.

I agree with the development, but more categorical in my conclusion. As you say, the two Legolas could be the same (even though the possibility is tenuous), it seems to me logical that they bear the same name, not a variant. The respect of the name in the elvish society is very important (See the ire of Fëanor against the change of Therindë/Serindë, or his jests about Hwëanáro/Hwinwë which should stand in vanyarin, or the ceremonies about names-attribution).
Moreover, a same name for two different persons is not so uncommon : Galdor seems to be in this case, but the name Ingoldo also, and a lot of Stewards (with heroes of First Age), Míriel, Ambarussa, Finwë, Maidros, Gildor, Haldir, Rúmil,… So why changing the name chosen by Tolkien ? And Oropher is from sindarin ascendancy and was born before the destruction of Beleriand (if my memory is good), he must know the story of Gondolin and Thranduil too, it could be reasonable to imagine him giving the name of this well-known hero to his son.

Quote:

As an aside not: Is {Legolas}[Laegolas] a change in the spelling in the elvish script at all or is it just a change of pronounciation?

'Just' a change of pronunciation ? It is too much for me.

And /ae/ and /e/ are written differently in tengwar, see the King's Letters. It is a change of the substance of the name, not only of the outside.

Quote:

aravanessë, I did understand your argument agianst pure Sindarin, but I do not quiet agree to it. Noldorin as it was when The Fall of Gondolin was written, is clearly not the language JRR Tolkien later in his life envisaged for the Noldor in Beleriand to have ever spoken. Such a speech existed probably in Tolkiens mind, but it was not the earlier Noldorin of The Lost Tales. Any way it would be help full to hear your positive arguments for the change or no change for the name Legolas.

I'm not sure to understand… You want to say gnomish is not the language Tolkien envisage for the Noldor in the later texts? If it is this, I think it isn't a problem, we know gnomish and sindarin dialects, the languages adopted by the Noldor in Exil in later phases of composition, are close linked as for vocabulary, and we know Legolas is attested in gnomish and in sindarin.

It is long and difficult to speak English, and I can't express exactly what I want to say. Rhhhh !

aravanessë

Findegil · 02-13-2007, 01:43 AM

Quote:

It is long and difficult to speech English, and I can't express exactly what I want to say. Rhhhh !

This is at least a problem we share.

About pronunciation: Ma own name does never change in spelling, but when I move to a country speaking a different language, even one in the same group of languages e.g. English, the pronunciation will change.

If we now consider for a moment that the two Legolas' were one and the same, then we see him move from a country speaking a northern dialect of Sindarin enriched by Quenya words (Gondolin) to a country of speaking a fare removed Silvian dialect which is slowly sindarizied by the influence of his father and grandfather and the contact with other communities over a time span of 3000 years.

Under such circumstances I think that a slight change in the pronunciation is at least possible if not probable. Since we also can consider that in Gondolin the Fëanorien Tengwar was used and in Mircwood the elves tended rather to the Cirth a appropriate change of spelling seems possible as well.

That is not to say that I would not argue for not changing the name if we really reopen that choice, put I am a bit reluctant to through away the old decision, since many of the old members which discussed and voted on this one are no longer active and will not take part in a new discussion. So what I do really is teasing you to bring forth your arguments as compelling as possible to turn at least all the active members over to your side not only me.

Respectfully
Findegil

aravanessë · 02-13-2007, 07:30 AM

Oh! From which country do yo come from ?
I agree with you, but who/where are the active members I have to convince? I will take a malicious delight in it.

Quote:

About pronunciation: Ma own name does never change in spelling, but when I move to a country speaking a different language, even one in the same group of languages e.g. English, the pronunciation will change.

If we now consider for a moment that the two Legolas' were one and the same, then we see him move from a country speaking a northern dialect of Sindarin enriched by Quenya words (Gondolin) to a country of speaking a fare removed Silvian dialect which is slowly sindarizied by the influence of his father and grandfather and the contact with other communities over a time span of 3000 years.
Under such circumstances I think that a slight change in the pronunciation is at least possible if not probable. Since we also can consider that in Gondolin the Fëanorien Tengwar was used and in Mircwood the elves tended rather to the Cirth a appropriate change of spelling seems possible as well.

Yeah I had not thought about this possibility.
Personally, I respect the pronunciation of 'Julian' in Deutsch when my correspondant come at home. But it is my own experience, not a generality, I concede.
In Gondolin, 'gondolinic runes' were used according to Tolkien-compositions from 1920-30. And the difference is made between /e/ and /ae/ in both systems (gondolinic and runic).
Oropher, the grand-father, is one of the iathrim, I think he speaks a good sindarin, and continue to call his grand-son by his right name if the others Tawarwaith dont do so.

aravanessë

Findegil · 02-14-2007, 06:24 AM

I am from Germany and have to travel in my job regularly to France, and the USA. I also have visited Scotland, Brazil, the Netherlands and Denmark. The Brazilians were as a rule not able to pronounce my first Name “Ralf” in any recognisable way (to safe the day for the Brazilians, I did meet there a lot of people that had some knowledge of German and spoke it fluent alongside a good pronunciation of my name, but many of them had German ancestors). The Danish and Netherlands have no problem with “Ralf” but the native English speakers tend to change the sound of the vocal. But as you do with the German pronunciation of Julian, I accept the English pronunciation of “Ralf”. It is hard for people to change their habit of speaking and would only lead to lesser flow in communication. I think that this is quiet common, but who knows?

As an example of even greater changes take the names Charles and Henry corresponding to German Karl and Heinrich.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: As fare as I can see the active members in the moment are Aiwendil, Maédhros, you and me. But if you look at this thread you will find a lot more names who had all taken part in the first round of discussion and many of them had also voted. In all the time I am at the project we never had a vote, but voting was more common at the start of the project, when much more members were active and an agreement of all was much harder to reach. Some time Aiwendil Maédhros and I discussed about the old votes and what we would do if we would reach a point were the result of such an old vote becomes doubt full. But I am not sure if we had come to a conclusion.

**lindil** · 02-19-2007, 11:59 PM

I do not at all see how Legolas [LotR] could be one and the same unless you discount everything said in UT about Thranduil being the son of Orophir and thus Kin to the SIndarin Celeborn.

Legolas in LotR simply never lived in Beleriand [unlike Glorfindel - who could have and I think in XII does, but w/ small reservations on JRRT's part], does he not say somewhere in XII, ok I went out to the garage to get XII.

On p. 379:

Quote:

and if [glorfindel] was a cheiftan of the City he must have been a noldo

Also we have the Orophir being painted as a very partisan and grudge holding Doriathrim. SO much so that seemingly Thranduil his son cuts off contact w/ Lorien because of the Noldorin taint!

So unless we disregard UT [all late writings] and XII's 'late writings' Legolas as Gondolinite is 100% out. I am sure someone here can come up a better case than that [if need be].

Findegil · 02-20-2007, 02:53 PM

Okay, if it is wanted I will add a further information of how I see it as possible that Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood are one and the same person.

My main arguments for Legolas being older as normaly acounted comes from The Lord of the Ring:
1. Legolas tells that only in Fangorn he feels young again since wandering with the companions. Considering that just before he had meet such old elves like Galadriel and Celeborn makes it very suspicious that he is as young as many see him.
2. In Moria he is beside Gandalf the only one and he is the first to identify the Balrog as what he is. Compare that to Aragorn. He has been educated in the last High-elven refuge. But even after hearing Gandalf and Legolas name the demon he does not use that name when telling about it in Lorien. For me that means he has never heard before about Balrogs at all. Therefore this matter seems not to be anything Elves thought their children or young warriors. At least this should make us suspicious about the curriculum viëta of Thranduil and Oropher. Doriathrim had never any known contact to Balrogs in the wars of Beleriand. How would they get a knowledge good enough to educate Legolas so that he could identify the Balrog at once?

A further point is added by The Unfinished Tales: There we are told about the feelings of Thranduil after the war of the Last Alliance. That he did know that the peace would not last for ever and that he was anguish when ever he thought about Mordor. And all what we hear seems to me to contradict that he could have had a child in the third age.

Now all these points would be solved at once when Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood would be one and the same. But that would of course need a special viëta for Thranduil his father. If we assume for the reason of a possibility check that the Legolases are only one Legoas and that he is the son of Thranduil. Than Thranduil would need the following viëta:

Oropher was a Elf from Doriath and he stayed their until its final downfall in the fight against the Fëanorians. (From this his embitterment against the Noldor.) I assume that he fled to Ossiriand but that is only a guess.
Thranduil seems also to have been witnessed the building of Menegroth, since he build his own fortress very similar to it. Which probably meant he was born in the early days of Doriath. In the long time of peace that followed the building of Menegroth he wandered into the north and settled in Nevrast, were he stayed until he moved with Turgon to Gondolin. In Gondolin Legolas was born (since he never had heard the cry of the gulls he can not have been born in Nevrast).
After the Fall of Gondolin Thranduil and Legolas separated from the fugitives of Gondolin (possibly when Tuor deicide to move from Nan-Tathren to Sirions mouth) and went in search of Oropher. (If we assume that they found him in Ossiriand, than we might have found the missing link, that triggered the move of Nimloth with Elwing from Ossiriand to Sirions mouth.) From That point onward the story is more or less given in UT beside the fact that Legolas was all the time with his father and grandfather.

I know very well that this viëta of Thranduil is pressed to fit the assumption that Legolas of Mirkwood was in Gondolin, but since we did not find any clear no go in this way, such a viëta is possible even if improbable. I do not say that is how it was, but I say that is one possibility how it could have been.

For me the faint possibility given above is enough to deny any drastic change of the name.

Respectfully
Findegil

Galin · 06-14-2007, 09:13 AM

Wouldn't one need to keep Legolas out of 'New Ossiriand' as well? considering that it became a seaside kingdom.

The first entry in Appendix B for the Second Age concerns the Foundation of Lindon and the Grey Havens. The text concerning the Sindar and Thranduil appears just before the entries begin of course, including information about who lived in this 'new' Lindon (called the 'Kingdom of Lindon' in drafts).

The Second Age

'(...) In the beginning of this Age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the North of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune...' The Return of the King Appendix B

Here I think the suggestion is that the Sindar dwelt in Lindon at this time, but at some point before the building of the Barad-dûr, Thranduil and others went East and etc. I guess one might argue that if he left before the building of the Barad-dûr it could have been well before, despite that the context seems to imply (to my mind) 'sometime after they lived in Lindon, but yet before the building of the Barad-dûr'. According to Appendix B this span is about one thousand years.

Compare to another description in Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age (noting the sequence of description): the destruction of Beleriand is described, Ossiriand is explained: 'that country had of old been named Lindon'. Next: 'Upon the Shores of the Gulf of Lhûn the Elves built their havens...' and then comes...

'Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in this age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea,...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

Here these Eldar are said to have crossed the Ered Luin in this Age, and the new realms established are far from the Sea.

For interest maybe, in the drafts 'Remnants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) establish realms in the woodlands far eastward...' is under the entry for Second Age 750 (Thranduil is mentioned). Obviously this version contains details that were changed in any case, but it still seems to me, from the overall texts, that these Elves began the Second Age in Lindon.

02-14-2007, 06:24 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I am from Germany and have to travel in my job regularly to France, and the USA. I also have visited Scotland, Brazil, the Netherlands and Denmark. The Brazilians were as a rule not able to pronounce my first Name “Ralf” in any recognisable way (to safe the day for the Brazilians, I did meet there a lot of people that had some knowledge of German and spoke it fluent alongside a good pronunciation of my name, but many of them had German ancestors). The Danish and Netherlands have no problem with “Ralf” but the native English speakers tend to change the sound of the vocal. But as you do with the German pronunciation of Julian, I accept the English pronunciation of “Ralf”. It is hard for people to change their habit of speaking and would only lead to lesser flow in communication. I think that this is quiet common, but who knows? As an example of even greater changes take the names Charles and Henry corresponding to German Karl and Heinrich. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: As fare as I can see the active members in the moment are Aiwendil, Maédhros, you and me. But if you look at this thread you will find a lot more names who had all taken part in the first round of discussion and many of them had also voted. In all the time I am at the project we never had a vote, but voting was more common at the start of the project, when much more members were active and an agreement of all was much harder to reach. Some time Aiwendil Maédhros and I discussed about the old votes and what we would do if we would reach a point were the result of such an old vote becomes doubt full. But I am not sure if we had come to a conclusion.

02-20-2007, 02:53 PM	#6
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Okay, if it is wanted I will add a further information of how I see it as possible that Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood are one and the same person. My main arguments for Legolas being older as normaly acounted comes from The Lord of the Ring: 1. Legolas tells that only in Fangorn he feels young again since wandering with the companions. Considering that just before he had meet such old elves like Galadriel and Celeborn makes it very suspicious that he is as young as many see him. 2. In Moria he is beside Gandalf the only one and he is the first to identify the Balrog as what he is. Compare that to Aragorn. He has been educated in the last High-elven refuge. But even after hearing Gandalf and Legolas name the demon he does not use that name when telling about it in Lorien. For me that means he has never heard before about Balrogs at all. Therefore this matter seems not to be anything Elves thought their children or young warriors. At least this should make us suspicious about the curriculum viëta of Thranduil and Oropher. Doriathrim had never any known contact to Balrogs in the wars of Beleriand. How would they get a knowledge good enough to educate Legolas so that he could identify the Balrog at once? A further point is added by The Unfinished Tales: There we are told about the feelings of Thranduil after the war of the Last Alliance. That he did know that the peace would not last for ever and that he was anguish when ever he thought about Mordor. And all what we hear seems to me to contradict that he could have had a child in the third age. Now all these points would be solved at once when Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood would be one and the same. But that would of course need a special viëta for Thranduil his father. If we assume for the reason of a possibility check that the Legolases are only one Legoas and that he is the son of Thranduil. Than Thranduil would need the following viëta: Oropher was a Elf from Doriath and he stayed their until its final downfall in the fight against the Fëanorians. (From this his embitterment against the Noldor.) I assume that he fled to Ossiriand but that is only a guess. Thranduil seems also to have been witnessed the building of Menegroth, since he build his own fortress very similar to it. Which probably meant he was born in the early days of Doriath. In the long time of peace that followed the building of Menegroth he wandered into the north and settled in Nevrast, were he stayed until he moved with Turgon to Gondolin. In Gondolin Legolas was born (since he never had heard the cry of the gulls he can not have been born in Nevrast). After the Fall of Gondolin Thranduil and Legolas separated from the fugitives of Gondolin (possibly when Tuor deicide to move from Nan-Tathren to Sirions mouth) and went in search of Oropher. (If we assume that they found him in Ossiriand, than we might have found the missing link, that triggered the move of Nimloth with Elwing from Ossiriand to Sirions mouth.) From That point onward the story is more or less given in UT beside the fact that Legolas was all the time with his father and grandfather. I know very well that this viëta of Thranduil is pressed to fit the assumption that Legolas of Mirkwood was in Gondolin, but since we did not find any clear no go in this way, such a viëta is possible even if improbable. I do not say that is how it was, but I say that is one possibility how it could have been. For me the faint possibility given above is enough to deny any drastic change of the name. Respectfully Findegil

06-14-2007, 09:13 AM	#7
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Wouldn't one need to keep Legolas out of 'New Ossiriand' as well? considering that it became a seaside kingdom. The first entry in Appendix B for the Second Age concerns the Foundation of Lindon and the Grey Havens. The text concerning the Sindar and Thranduil appears just before the entries begin of course, including information about who lived in this 'new' Lindon (called the 'Kingdom of Lindon' in drafts). The Second Age '(...) In the beginning of this Age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the North of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune...' The Return of the King Appendix B Here I think the suggestion is that the Sindar dwelt in Lindon at this time, but at some point before the building of the Barad-dûr, Thranduil and others went East and etc. I guess one might argue that if he left before the building of the Barad-dûr it could have been well before, despite that the context seems to imply (to my mind) 'sometime after they lived in Lindon, but yet before the building of the Barad-dûr'. According to Appendix B this span is about one thousand years. Compare to another description in Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age (noting the sequence of description): the destruction of Beleriand is described, Ossiriand is explained: 'that country had of old been named Lindon'. Next: 'Upon the Shores of the Gulf of Lhûn the Elves built their havens...' and then comes... 'Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in this age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea,...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age Here these Eldar are said to have crossed the Ered Luin in this Age, and the new realms established are far from the Sea. For interest maybe, in the drafts 'Remnants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) establish realms in the woodlands far eastward...' is under the entry for Second Age 750 (Thranduil is mentioned). Obviously this version contains details that were changed in any case, but it still seems to me, from the overall texts, that these Elves began the Second Age in Lindon.