LotR3-RotK-Seq23

[alatar]

Great observations, guys, and thanks for posting.

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Let me just say that this is one of the greatest climaxes to a movie I've ever seen (not counting endings, though). It takes these characters we've followed for so long and finally brings them full-circle. Watching this scene in the cinema was mind-blowing; all these emotions and adrenaline at once. I'm going to go with Elladan and Elrohir here and say it was something Peter Jackson got RIGHT. Sure, there were a few changes to the scene, but I think they actually made it more powerful in terms of concluding what had come before (see below). This is perhaps the strongest set of scenes in the whole trilogy, just for the raw emotional power it supplies.

It definitely worked; however, having watched it more than a few times, the shine has worn off. Also note that when I'm writing these posts, I use the 'pause' button a lot, and so miss the swell created by the musical score.

It does seem inconsistent. The only reason I can think of was that Merry and Pippin were strong and healthy whereas Sam was close to death, so his throwing ability would have been affected.

...and Gollum was the picture of health and vigor whereas those scrawny Uruks and orcs were frail as flowers. Maybe Gollum had a high constitution and made the saving throw.

I kind of wish Sam could have said his rushed farewell to Frodo and maybe spoken furiously to Gollum instead of the wordless fight in the movies, but I suppose it would have slowed down the pace.

Agreed. That would have been nice. Sam 'gets his Master there,' yet initially doesn't go with him to finish the Quest.

Notice that in the same shot, we see behind the Black Gate, and you can spot the Trolls that pulled the opening mechanism from TTT that alatar despised so much

You'd think that they'd have the day off in celebration of the 'last battle.'

For some reason, I found this rough and tumble fighting far more brutal than anything the heroes did to the bad guys. Maybe it's because it's more realistic, so it's much 'closer to home'. Am I onto something here or just looking too deeply at this?

No, I completely understand. The kids see the battle of the Pelennor as a big CG video game whereas the death of Boromir (and, in the Potter films, Harry's friend via Voldemort) as scary and so we skip those scenes. It's personal; that's a real human (or boy) dying, not some person in a costume that gets hacked apart in three seconds and therefore is quickly forgotten.

One thing I find odd here is that Sam never bothers to finish Gollum off - he just cuts him and leaves him there. In the book he pities him in his last moment with Gollum and spares him, but we don't get that here so it seems strange that he would leave such a dangerous foe alive and active.

Would have been nice to see that, when it came down to it, that Sam too could not kill Gollum in cold blood (i.e. that's why he's one of the good guys). Plus it would reinforce, yet again, Gandalf's message/words in Moria.

I just love this bit. Gandalf's expression as he spots the moth and then looks up is brilliant. The Eagles swooping in and attacking was marvellous to see (though there should have been more of them). Notice that one of the Ringwraiths is knocked from his mount and falls into the battle.

"If a Nazgul falls in the woods..." Wonder if it was hurt, and therefore susceptible to an attack by the destaffed Gandalf?

Why not?

I guess that from the West's point of view, Mount Doom always signals an event of some import (plague, war, the return of Sauron, etc). Just wonder if Sauron understood the possibility that on Mount Doom doom would fall.

The flames and rock are all done brilliantly - not for a moment did I think that Mount Doom wasn't real. It's like a Middle Ages drawing of Hell - a boiling, burning place where nothing exists - there is no life in the Void.Also, some strong imagery here - Frodo standing straight at the edge of the rock. Quite the opposite of him slouching in the dirt! Also, notice how the 'wind'/'smoke' seems to revolve around Frodo and the Ring - they are now the central point of the situation.

Nice observation, and someone may see more in Frodo here.

What I find interesting here is that when there are 'two' people present (Frodo/Sam and Isildur/Elrond) the journey fails - both times, the Ring survives. But when the third person arrives - Gollum - the Ring is destroyed. Is there a sort of Holy Trinity here - that it takes three to do something so spiritually powerful?

Very interesting observation! I personally do not see the Christian Trinity, but see that Chaos, in the form of Gollum, has entered the event and will tip the scales either to the good side or the bad. If Gollum falls, like he does, good wins. If he claims the Ring, it won't be long until Sauron retakes it - bad wins. Eru rolling dice, perhaps?

The Battle Troll was a neat monster and a nice change from the blank waves of generic Orcs. My only complaint would be that the Troll carries a mace but for some reason never just crushes Aragorn with it. As a strange aside, my brother never had any problems with all the impalings and beheadings, and yet he could never face Frodo's bloody hand beng bitten.

A Troll all dressed up for battle yet not knowing how to dance. The mace, to me, clearly indicates that this may have originally been Sauron Incarnate. As we continue to come full circle, just who else had a mace like that?

Does he feel suicidal from all the torment and pain, and just wants to end it there? Or is he so utterly twisted by the Ring that he'd be willing to die just for a chance to reach it again?

That's my guess. He, for the love of the Ring, gave up Sam.

I'm hoping you got this from my previous SbS post, but that's just my own vanity.

But of course...

Originally Posted by Essex

but as it's the same as in the book, then I am happy.

Sure, but in the book Gandalf had his staff, promoted the 'attack Sauron first' plan, and Eomer actually had a role...

I don't mind Pippin taking the immortal line that he only hears in the book. But a pity we don't see Pippin 'die' here as we think he does when we read the book for the first time. (I remember putting the book down and balling my eyes out for AGES when I thought he had died) - And I have put forward on one of the book threads a while back that he DID die, but was brought back to life after the Ring was destroyed........

Pippin's death would have muddied the story, however much I would have cheered. Merry just died, Aragorn fell off a cliff and returned, Gollum returned from the same, Frodo appeared to die with Gollum, Gandalf fell off a cliff and rejoined the Fellowship...I guess that the area in front of the Morannon didn't have a precipice where Pip could have fallen from then return from .

Picky!!!!

Moi?!?

Notice there are 3 of the Eagles? The other one was for Gollum......

Really? Interesting idea, though I thought that the third was Gandalf's mount.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

Really? Interesting idea, though I thought that the third was Gandalf's mount.

re the Eagles. Notice Gandalf is on the first eagle, and that the third eagle is 'riderless' and indeed looks around for someone to pick up but finds no one. Therefore, and maybe it's mentioned in a book or on the DVD, but I do reckon Gandalf went with three Eagles for the 3 'hobbits'.........

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

re the Eagles. Notice Gandalf is on the first eagle, and that the third eagle is 'riderless' and indeed looks around for someone to pick up but finds no one. Therefore, and maybe it's mentioned in a book or on the DVD, but I do reckon Gandalf went with three Eagles for the 3 'hobbits'.........

Regardless of whether we speak of the books or the movies, just how does Gandalf know if there are any survivors - especially in the movies where we have Gandalf continually relying on others for information (Saruman, Aragorn)? Clearly Gandalf went to look for any survivors, and the eagles, in battle, flew out in their battle group (a 'wing') of three - one to look and the two others to guard the flanks.

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by alatar

Regardless of whether we speak of the books or the movies, just how does Gandalf know if there are any survivors - especially in the movies where we have Gandalf continually relying on others for information (Saruman, Aragorn)? Clearly Gandalf went to look for any survivors, and the eagles, in battle, flew out in their battle group (a 'wing') of three - one to look and the two others to guard the flanks.

I just assume that he wasn't giving up on the Hobbits and so went to Mount Doom in the faint hope they'd be alive. There's a bit in The Hobbit just like this - after Gandalf and the Dwarves escape from the Goblin caves, Gandalf is willing to go back just to find Bilbo (though Bilbo reappears right there anyway).

[aiea]

Originally Posted by alatar

What I find interesting here is that when there are 'two' people present (Frodo/Sam and Isildur/Elrond) the journey fails - both times, the Ring survives. But when the third person arrives - Gollum - the Ring is destroyed. Is there a sort of Holy Trinity here - that it takes three to do something so spiritually powerful?

Very interesting observation! I personally do not see the Christian Trinity, but see that Chaos, in the form of Gollum, has entered the event and will tip the scales either to the good side or the bad. If Gollum falls, like he does, good wins. If he claims the Ring, it won't be long until Sauron retakes it - bad wins. Eru rolling dice, perhaps?

You could read a little about Gurdjieff esoteric Christianity...
The third person is a force that is invisible and sometimes manifest itself .
Gollum is here because Mercy has win Justice both with Bilbo both with Frodo.
May be Isildur fail because he believed Sauron fail because of his family not seeing that was the Alliance that win him... So he believed right, an act of justice, to keep the ring as a "record" . Eru is not rolling dice, but as the Oracle in Matrix , he put his faith in Neo (Frodo/sam) but he cannot alter the number of results of dices ,it goes further ihs possibility ! Iluvatar could create Elves and men ,then he could just try to awaken them ,not rule them.
He could give some light to show the ground,but is up to them to find the path...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by aiea

May be Isildur fail because he believed Sauron fail because of his family not seeing that was the Alliance that win him... So he believed right, an act of justice, to keep the ring as a "record" . Eru is not rolling dice, but as the Oracle in Matrix , he put his faith in Neo (Frodo/sam) but he cannot alter the number of results of dices ,it goes further ihs possibility ! Iluvatar could create Elves and men ,then he could just try to awaken them ,not rule them.
He could give some light to show the ground,but is up to them to find the path...

Interesting thoughts, aiea.

With three, you can get some different trilogies/trinities. Instead of thinking that we have three hobbits, consider that we have Frodo, who has a choice to make, and Gollum and Sam to represent the other viewpoints. You have Gollum the murderous addict, and Sam the faithful who voluntarily gave back the Ring.

Which did Frodo want to become?