The atrocity of the Akallabêth

[Raynor]

How interesting do we think the story would have been if Melkor had sung what he was told? It would have produced the equivalent of 10,000 years of The Waltons...

I disagree. Firstly, the music Eru gave to the Ainur was itself "a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Iluvatar and were silent". Of the music the Ainur themselves made from this theme, it is said "never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music". Is this a trifle, a small thing, something to be disconsidered?

The Ainur are the greatest beings, in majesty and status, created by Eru. Howevr, when they beheld the Eruhini and their habitation world, "then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place". Were the Ainur just stupid in not seeing how prosaic all this world is? And the greatest of them even? I also doubt that any of the ainur who decided to go forth had in their minds thoughts like "man, am I goona kick some behind there or what?",

Aman it is said to be as Arda Unmarred would have been. There, arts of all sorts were created freely, marvelous things. There, art would have been Art, a way for even the lesser creatures to rise above their condition and catch in their work a splinter of the wonder of creation. For don't the easterners say that creativity in humans is their divine aspect?

Is figthing the corruption of creation the only worthy challenge? How about exceeding your own limitations, with using your aptitudes and skills to their best? Doesn't human kind even nowadays prides itself with great technological, scientifical and cultural achievements? We see a perennial archetype which continues to inspire: the theme of Eru, the music of the Ainur, the Art of the elves, the art of the humans. Perhaps each and everyone thus achieved their greatest potential; perhaps some exceeded their initial condition.

There are challenges in coming and working together while still respecting and celebrating our uniquenness. To argue that the lack of corruption makes the world uninteresting is first of all a logical fallacy: we only know a corrupted world (here or in the books); to say how would a fundamentally different world would be to us is, imo, presumptuous. You can’t start with a hypothesis that is not true and then draw any supportable conclusions from it. I for one don't cherrish the dimming of one's faculty because of his/her inner corruption, or the world's. Violence is defined by Gandhi as the difference between one's actual status and one's potential. Corruption in the world increases that difference; in and of itself, it is not laudable. Countless of Einstein's, Francis's d'Assisi, Plato's and Mozart's have died horribly worthlessly due to the corruption of the world, without coming ever close to their calling and potential. Even if corruption presents a nice challenge, who is willing to celebrate their deaths and lost works? No one, I hope.

[davem]

Maybe, & I'm sure that that's what happened with the Vanyar. However, the fate of the Noldor is more interesting, admirable, poignant & fulfilling as Art. The light grows, flourishes & dims. We are born, grow, & die. That is our tragedy, but from it comes our potential for glory as a race & more importantly as individuals.

Would Mozart's music have contained the beauty it did if it had not come out of his experience as a Man (a mortal who will die), & would it speak to us as it does if we did not share his mortality? Living forever in a nice peaceful world is a nice fantasy, but a boring reality, which would not produce 'Art' but blandness, because nothing would actually matter - in fact it probably wouldn't produce anything much, because we could do it tomorrow or the day after or the day after that. 'Corruption', death, breaking down, is another word for liberation, because it frees us from the past & liberates us to do something new. The fact that other potential Mozarts, Platos, Einsteins, have been lost inspires us to do what they might have done if they'd had the chance.

"I think," Tehanu said in her soft, strange voice, "that when I die, I can breathe back the breath that made me live. I can give back to the world all that I didn't do. All that I might have been & couldn't be. All the choices I didn't make. All the things I lost & spent & wasted. I can give them back to the world. To the lives that haven't been lived yet. That will be my gift back to the world that gave me the life I did live, the love I loved, the breath I breathed."

The Other Wind....Ursula Le Guin

[Lalwendë]

Eru himself states that Melkor and his rebellion are necessary. What he does is 'tributary' to the glory of Eru, i.e. it not only ultimately serves to pay yet more tribute to that grandeur and omnipotence but it also feeds in to that glory. It is necessary as it serves to create the circumstances under which all the created beings of Arda can work for and serve Eru, can discover and enact pity and redemption and peace and all those good things that just wouldn't happen if there was no Darkness. And it's after Melkor's rebellion that Eru creates Men - creates them with mortality, sadness and profundity inbuilt.

If the world was 'perfect' then there would be no need for inspirational figures such as Gandhi or the Dalai Lama. There would be no need for scientific endeavour or even education and we could all lie around on our chaise longues eating chocolate tangents for eternity. There would be no need for Art as the world would be so perfect why would we need to express any joy or sadness in it. And there would be NO Tolkien!

Darkness is essential to the creation of satisfying Art, without it there is no plot, we merely have a succession of thoroughly nice chaps and ladies being thoroughly nice to one another. A bit like one of those manufactured Disney stories about pretty princesses endlessly marrying handsome princes - the only way to increase the excitement is to increase the bling. Or those awful platitudes expressed on 'inspirational' posters that you used to get in the workplace. Poetry would all be like greetings cards and music would all be bland manufactured non-threatening pre-teen boyband pap. If you look at all the great pop and rock music it is there purely because of suffering and struggle - The Beatles wanted to break free of the limited expectations set on them and did it by becoming musicians. Art is the same - there would be no Pre-Raphaelites had they not been struggling against the establishment, and remember there would be no work by Tolkien to even discuss had he not suffered in his youth - he'd probably simply followed his father into banking.

Why do we never read anything of what happens to the Vanyar in Valinor? If it was so beautiful and perfect why didn't Tolkien write about this? Because what was happening in Middle-earth was infinitely more interesting. It was in Middle-earth that we could see pity and glory and joy, and it was there that we could see Eru's intentions best of all. Valinor is boring. Had Tolkien just written about Valinor it would have been like the kind of tedious pap you can read in the platitude columns in Reader's Digest or the People's Friend. I don't want to read about some simpering Elf Princess and her beautiful hair and her embroidery, I want to read about Frodo and Gollum and Boromir and Saruman!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

However, the fate of the Noldor is more interesting, admirable, poignant & fulfilling as Art.

I wouldn't say they were agents of Art. Of History, maybe - a tumultous one, one which shaped the ages to come. They produced Art directly while they were in Aman; and rarely after, mainly when they associated with Men, who "were raised to their fullest achievable stature".

Originally Posted by davem

Would Mozart's music have contained the beauty it did if it had not come out of his experience as a Man (a mortal who will die), & would it speak to us as it does if we did not share his mortality?

I wasn't arguing that the general fate and status of Men or Elves be different. If Men are immortal, there is little to differentiate them from Elves, apart from creative powers. "Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane, and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person". A Man Mozart in Arda Unmarred would still have the experience of mortality.

Originally Posted by davem

Living forever in a nice peaceful world is a nice fantasy, but a boring reality, which would not produce 'Art' but blandness, because nothing would actually matter - in fact it probably wouldn't produce anything much, because we could do it tomorrow or the day after or the day after that. '

I respectfully disagree; by large, artists produce their work because they have an inner drive, passion, sensibility, and because they want to achieve self development. I would also say that artists can be traumatised by negative experience; given an enough negative experience, a human being, almost any human being, can become inert, dead inside, unable to produce and to be beneficial to society. Arts and culture generally advance in peaceful times; in warring times, more basic needs, survival, hunger, shelter, are what occuppies the minds of most.

Originally Posted by davem

'Corruption', death, breaking down, is another word for liberation, because it frees us from the past & liberates us to do something new.

Maybe if it wouldn happen to someone else. Corruption usually ties one in to something, not necessarily the past; death is not something peculiar to Arda Unmarred only; breaking down a liberation? Maybe; but I am not condemning a normal cycle of life, only the accelerated decay introduced by Melkor.

Originally Posted by davem

The fact that other potential Mozarts, Platos, Einsteins, have been lost inspires us to do what they might have done if they'd had the chance.

I'll be frank, role models who actually existed do inspire me ; they could inspire me to produce art or knowledge. For those who didn't leave a single mark, I could at most make an elegy.

Originally Posted by Lal

Eru himself states that Melkor and his rebellion are necessary.

Where exactly did he say his rebellion was necessary?

Originally Posted by Lal

It is necessary as it serves to create the circumstances under which all the created beings of Arda can work for and serve Eru, can discover and enact pity and redemption and peace and all those good things that just wouldn't happen if there was no Darkness.

I disagree; if corruption can make "individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable", how can they still serve Eru, consciously and willingly? Esspecially if Men have only one life at their disposal for this? How many humans do actually repent? Was it at least half the humankind that thought with the host of the valar at the war of wrath? What about the elves, who, if they are severely tainted, may spend all "eternity" in the halls of Mandos, wailing, ever filling Nienna's hands? I am also not convinced that Melkor's rebellion created darkness and morality - these must have existed before his rebellion, after all, he was created from Eru's mind; I don't think he created evil, only that he "discovered" it and became its most formidable agent.

Originally Posted by Lal

And it's after Melkor's rebellion that Eru creates Men - creates them with mortality, sadness and profundity inbuilt.

I wouldn't agree; the Children were made by Eru alone "and none of the Ainur had part in their making".

Originally Posted by Lal

If the world was 'perfect' then there would be no need for inspirational figures such as Gandhi or the Dalai Lama.

I disagree; there are many obstacles to be overcome, even in a life sheltered from evil. One's potentiality, for both morality or spirituality, or for anything actually, has to be developed through effort, and a master eases the path, in almost any set of circumstances.

Originally Posted by Lal

There would be no need for scientific endeavour or even education and we could all lie around on our chaise longues eating chocolate tangents for eternity.

Aman was thoroughly sheltered from evil, yet the amount of Art and knowledge produced there by the noldor exceeds anything they produced in Middle Earth. And to return to my argument about corruption and Art,

Originally Posted by Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor, Silmarillion

And [the Valar] mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.

It doesn't look like they expected Feanor to continue to make Art after he: was marred, blasphemed, killed fellow elves, and set out to war. But what they know, they are just Valar .

Originally Posted by Lal

And there would be NO Tolkien!

Not the same unique Tolkien. I would dare say this is the logical fallacy of argument from ignorance . Again, I am not arguing that Arda Unmarred doesn't have morality in it, only that evil isn't one of the strongest (the strongest?) moral and physical force in it.

Originally Posted by Lal

If you look at all the great pop and rock music it is there purely because of suffering and struggle

I have started reading an interesting book, The Social Movements Reader; on its first chapter, it makes a striking statement: it quotes researchers in the field of sociology stating that people rise to challenge their condition only when they perceive the difference between their status and their potential one. As long as such a difference is not perceived, many, most, of the afro-americans, women, homosexuals, workers, or other oppresed humans, just don't do anything about it. They endure through their oppression, they assimilate their understatus. And they do this for years, decades, or centuries. Once they know that they can be better, they can improve; otherwise, they merely stagnate in their condition. It is said that it is not worth making the world perfect if it takes the tears of a baby to do that; I certainly wouldn't equate the value of various works of art coming out of knowing the consequences of deep corruption with the suffering and death of others, esspecially if among them there were artists.

The Men stagnated for the most part untill they met the ones who had higher status. They received knowledge, wisdom, and they beheld role models, which emboldended them to advance. Humans would definitely have models to emulate, in a world where cultivation of one's ability would be in hand's reach, where knowledge of past peaks still endures, undimmed maybe, in form or memory.

Originally Posted by Lal

If it was so beautiful and perfect why didn't Tolkien write about this?

Because no Vanya made it back to Middle Earth; because what Men know about Aman is pretty much what they know from the numenoreans, who in their turn know from the exiled Noldor, who, of course, wouldn't know what happened during their exile even to their kin in Aman, let alone to the Vanyar.

[Lalwendë]

I disagree; there are many obstacles to be overcome, even in a life sheltered from evil. One's potentiality, for both morality or spirituality, or for anything actually, has to be developed through effort, and a master eases the path, in almost any set of circumstances.

What obstacles? If life was perfect there would be no obstacles.

Aman was thoroughly sheltered from evil, yet the amount of Art and knowledge produced there by the noldor exceeds anything they produced in Middle Earth.

And wasn't that Art produced via the pride of Feanor? I would also dispute that the Art made in Valinor exceeds that produced in Middle-earth. It just cannot be said to do so with any degree of certainty. Art does not bend to such rules. The only way that it could be quantitatively better would be by dint of its 'perfection' - a comparison between the Art of Tirion and the Art of Lothlorien may have us saying that in terms of perfection Tirion is superior as it is grander, more elegant etc. whereas the latter is lesser as it is not so grand, not so 'developed'. But then that is like comparing Canary Wharf with a medieval castle - the former is a pinnacle of perfection, the latter so much smaller, more insignificant, old, undeveloped, etc.

Because no Vanya made it back to Middle Earth; because what Men know about Aman is pretty much what they know from the numenoreans, who in their turn know from the exiled Noldor, who, of course, wouldn't know what happened during their exile even to their kin in Aman, let alone to the Vanyar.

I'm asking why Tolkien did not write about it, not why his characters did not. Why did Tolkien choose to write about wars, Death, torture, pain, destruction? Why didn't he simply write stories about the beauty and peace of Aman? I venture to say because there's nothing interesting in that, nothing moving. And that in itself is moving - that beauty only becomes important when reflected against the backdrop of ugliness, peace only important when contrasted with war, Life when contrasted with Death.

Rather than Men being the ones to benefit from contact with Elves, I think it is the other way around.

[davem]

If you have mortality you will have suffering, loss, pain, anger, frustration, confusion. Removing an abstract like 'evil' & retaining mortality will solve nothing, because all the results & consequences of evil will remain in the world as a result of mortality. The Numenoreans had such an 'evil-free' existence, but the fact of Death & the desire for more life produced evil. Hence in their case evil was a consequence of their mortality, not a cause of it.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lal

What obstacles? If life was perfect there would be no obstacles.

I don't think that Arda Unmarred is equated with perfection; perhaps the timeless halls of Eru - or maybe just Eru is perfect. If I understand correctly, Arda Unmarred is Arda without the strong element of melkorism: accelerated moral and physical decay. Water would still carve out stone, the general interaction of elements would be preserved and, as far as I see, we are in agreement that good and evil predate Melkor or his rebellion, at least as moral choices. There would still be evil choices, yet evil would not have such a compelling force, tainting the body, and therefore the mind. Indeed, there are no obstacles, if we don't see them: either because we don't consider them as such, when they objectively exist, because we accept them a priori; either because, when they objectively exist, we consider them a mere challenge. The main challenge "there", as well as "here", is achieving our potential; in both cases it requires effort. Esspecially for humans, time is limited, and doing the best with it is always a challenge.

Originally Posted by Lal

And wasn't that Art produced via the pride of Feanor?

I would call this a secondary, minor, motivation, if any at all. From what I gather in the Silmarillion, he and the noldor were working out of "delight"; of himself, it is stated that he "was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone". I interpret this as saying that it was the unique creative fire which he had, which no elf ever after had, that was driving him forward. I would dare say that a similar fire drives an artist to create.

Originally Posted by Lal

I would also dispute that the Art made in Valinor exceeds that produced in Middle-earth.

In aesthetics terms, you are probably right. However, if Art is to represent a reflection of God's creation, the inhabitants of Middle Earth had nowhere near the opportunities of time, knowledge, inspiration and guidance as the elves had in Aman, where their works and knowledge are preserved and they live near great inspirational models, the Valar and the Maiar, who by mere presence inspire and help, if not directly and through their knowledge.

Is there anything in Middle-Earth to parallel the sources of inspiration that were in Aman? For where else is it the memory of Ainulindale? What of the Silmarils or the palantiri? What even of Miriel's broideries?

Originally Posted by Of the silmarils and the darkening of Valinor, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

By her was the craft of needles devised; and were but one fragment of the broideries of Miriel to be seen in Middle-Earth it would be held dearer than a king's realm, for the richness of her devices and the fire of their colours were as manifold and as bright as the glory of leaf and flower and wing in the fields of Yavanna. Therefore she was named Miriel Serende, the Broideress.

Originally Posted by Lal

And that in itself is moving - that beauty only becomes important when reflected against the backdrop of ugliness, peace only important when contrasted with war, Life when contrasted with Death.

While for human eyes the small light of a candle is more impressive when viewed in a darker environment, it is no reason reject a more powerful light, be it from the stars, the sun, the radiance of a vala, or of the imperishable flame, at the heart of the world. Tolkien's Art attempts to reflect, how imperfectly as it was, a splinter of a more powerful light; it is a drive towards it, not a rejection of it.

Originally Posted by Lal

Rather than Men being the ones to benefit from contact with Elves, I think it is the other way around.

Why? The elves have experienced death due to violent causes long before they met the Men; they have been enslaved, tortured and peverted by Melkor, their works and houses destroyed. They lived through fear and agony and suffering. Who's to say that Andreth's words are more sad than Finrod's? Or that Frodo's more so than Galadriel's? What about the reply of the messengers of Aman to the lament of the Numenoreans?

I need to correct myself . I have realised there was an error at the end of my last post. The Vanyar did return to Middle Earth, at the end of the First Age, in the War of Wrath (it was Ingwe who didn't return). It is possible however that their contact with Men there was limited at best; afterwards, it is also true that the Elves were "if not commanded, sternly counselled" to return to the west. The main repository of knowledge of Aman in Middle Earth resided with the last exiles, who were, I suppose, most at contact with the Numenoreans (at least after their return to the shores of M-E). I will also mention that Silmarillion notes that the Vanyar held in their lore the response of Feanor to The prophecy of the north, so there was at least one event concerning the Vanyar that later reached M-E, after the exile of the noldor (I know, this particular situation isn't a point for my position ).

Originally Posted by davem

Hence in their case evil was a consequence of their mortality, not a cause of it.

I disagree; Numenor was not free from corruption, in Arda only Aman was (at best). Numenoreans were still Men, although elevated. All Men had a corrupted idea of death - on behalf of Melkor. Cf. the words of Pengolod to AElfwine:

Originally Posted by Of the begining of days, Silmarillion

Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree; Numenor was not free from corruption, in Arda only Aman was (at best). Numenoreans were still Men, although elevated. All Men had a corrupted idea of death - on behalf of Melkor. Cf. the words of Pengolod to AElfwine:

I can't see how Men could ever have had an 'uncorrupted' idea of death. Death would always have entailed loss, grief & pain. It would always have seemed terrible. What Melkor told them simply confirmed what they felt anyway. Unless, of course, we are to believe that Aragorn's death was the way all humans should have died.

The trouble with that is that to our experience it is unreal. We don't die like that - or its the exception that proves the rule. In the documentary Tolkien in Oxford, broadcast by the BBC in 1967 Tolkien is shown reading the following passage from Simone de Beauvoir:

There is no such thing as a natural death: nothing that happens to a man is ever natural, since his presence calls the world into question. All men must die: but for every man his death is an accident and, even if he knows it and consents to it, an unjustifiable violation.

& calling that 'the keyspring to LotR'. That sense that death is an 'unjustifiable violation' is the heart of LotR & the heart of our own feeling about death. We may speculate about living in a world where death is absent, or one in which death is accepted as a matter of fact, & hardly registers & we just happily 'move on' when our time comes , but it is not our experience, & if we lived in such a world we would not be who we are, & whatever we created (assuming we created anything) would be different - as alien to us as the idea that death is nothing special.

EDIT. The problem with the idea that what is wrong is not death per se but rather our attitude to it, is that it turns the tragedy of a death like Beren's or Boromir's, or Turin & Nienor's, into a misperception - if only those close to them & we the readers could see death for what 'it really is' we wouldn't feel any more grief over what happened to them than if they had avoided being killed & gone off on holiday, or moved to another country. Death is an unjustifiable violation, it is cruel & wrong - & not just because Melkor said so.

[Raynor]

Unless, of course, we are to believe that Aragorn's death was the way all humans should have died.

Indeed it was

Originally Posted by Akallabeth, Silmarillion

And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar. It became a grief to them only because coming under the shadow of Morgoth it seemed to them that they were surrounded by a great darkness, of which they were afraid; and some grew wilful and proud and would not yield, until life was reft from them. We who bear the ever-mounting burden of the years do not clearly understand this; but if that grief has returned to trouble you, as you say, then we fear that the Shadow arises once more and grows again in your hearts.

Originally Posted by Of the coming of Men into the West, Silmarillion

But Beor at the last had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace; and the Eldar wondered much at the strange fate of Men, for in all their lore there was no account of it, and its end was hidden from them.

Originally Posted by davem

We may speculate about living in a world where death is absent, or one in which death is accepted as a matter of fact, & hardly registers & we just happily 'move on' when our time comes , but it is not our experience, & if we lived in such a world we would not be who we are, & whatever we created (assuming we created anything) would be different - as alien to us as the idea that death is nothing special.

We need not speculate; there are (or at least have been) societies which accepted death as natural, as a stage of life; some even embraced it. Of my ancestors, the dacians, it is said that they welcomed death, so as they may meet Zamolxe, their god.

There are some strands of hinduism and Zen which preach that God may be met in the last moment of life - if God was the center of one's preocupation. There are monks who center their life's efforts on this ultimate trial; at least for them, death is not a punishment, but the culmination of their strivings.

Many martyrs, from almost every country, have taken actions which meant their certain death, yet they undertook them because they knew this could bring their cause closer to reality, and because of them people in many places enjoy more rights than otherwise (for the record, I don't agree with suicide bombings ). For themselves, death was an unique opportunity to make a difference; for those who benefited from it, it was a sacrifice revered.

Originally Posted by davem

The problem with the idea that what is wrong is not death per se but rather our attitude to it, is that it turns the tragedy of a death like Beren's or Boromir's, or Turin & Nienor's, into a misperception - if only those close to them & we the readers could see death for what 'it really is' we wouldn't feel any more grief over what happened to them than if they had avoided being killed & gone off on holiday, or moved to another country.

At least in Tolkien's world, death "as it should be seen" is not something banal; it doesn't change how it affects the person and one's world, but acknowledges that this end is also a begining, or a return of you will -a return which is a bounty that even the Powers and the Immortals envy. They envy it twice, because that fea leaves this world, and joins another one, most likely - Eru's.

The level of communion between a baby and his mother is probably unparalleled anywhere. Although birth itself brings physical pain to both of them, although at least the baby was immensely better off living in his mother womb, the potentialities awaiting after his birth are immense - and even more so in Arda Unmarred. I would argue that the same potentialiaties would await a Men after his second severance - this time not from the womb, but from the hroa.

Ultimate trust, faith, in Eru is required from his Children in both life and death. Trust that "of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy".