Snow angels

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Do elves see the thicker patches of snow, and again, just know where to step? Do they guard this secret to make themselves more interesting?

Well, if this be so, it suggests that their art or 'magic' leads them into a wee bit of deception, a quality which was recently attributed to the Ring on one of our serious threads. This could be interesting to explore as elves exist in the same dimension, simultaneously as they exist in ours, as that of the Ringwraiths. (Yes, there is a Tolkien comment about this, which I posted elsewhere, but my books are not at hand at the moment.) Maybe elves do have a different density than humans or hobbits?

Is Legolas' ability to walk upon snow (not water, now, snow), part of elven knowledge of the dark dimension? This is a very different take from that of Roa and Celuien's thoughts on the warming condition of the secret flame.

Originally Posted by Celuien

What if the Elves are able to slightly melt the snow as they stand on it, then allow it to refreeze in the cold temperatures? They could then skate on a film of ice (as I saw a few enthusiastic skaters at the edge of a nearby horse farm doing yesterday). I know that I can't tell the difference between frozen and non-frozen snow visually unless I look very closely. Perhaps the difference produced by this sleight-of-hand (or, more accuratelym slight of foot) was imperceptible to the non-Elf members of the Fellowship.

Now this raises in interesting possibility. Could elves have invented the game of hockey? Note, I am assuming that Celuien's friends at the horse farm were engaging in a game of shinny, but perhaps elves would limit themselves to the more elegant form of freeskate or figure skating. Not that Legolas would have been wearing blades on his slippers, although if swords could be fired and tempered to great sharpness, there's no reason why elves wouldn't have come up with the idea of attaching them to their slippers.

I seem to be developing two different lines of arguments here. The topic is so slippery.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, if this be so, it suggests that their art or 'magic' leads them into a wee bit of deception, a quality which was recently attributed to the Ring on one of our serious threads. This could be interesting to explore as elves exist in the same dimension, simultaneously as they exist in ours, as that of the Ringwraiths. (Yes, there is a Tolkien comment about this, which I posted elsewhere, but my books are not at hand at the moment.)

My very own thoughts have been skating down this very path! The Ringwraiths, it is said, 'see' the living as shadows on their minds, which only the noon day sun erases. Aragorn tells us that these same undead creatures fear fire. Now, I don't know much about overt or covert 'flames' nor much about dimensions, save the usual four, but I have read something about light.

We see in, obviously, what is called the visible spectrum (7000 - 4000 Angstroms). Bugs can see in ultraviolet, and so organisms aren't limited to the visible. The sun puts out much UV light, especially in the morning hours, as those that tan might have noted. Fire and other sources of heat emit infrared radiation. So, knowing these facts and what we've heard about the Nazgul, I would hypothesize that the Ringwraiths 'see' in both the infrared and ultraviolet spectra. This is why they dislike heat - it's like a blinding light - and minds are scrambled by noon (unlike mine which is done well before).

What does this have to do with elven snow angels? Well, if the elves can perceive that which we cannot, it may be that they too see in other spectra, and this permits them to see the ice and snow in a more favorable (and favoring) light.

[Roa_Aoife]

It seems to me that Nazgul cannot see visible, or "White", light. If they could, they would see the living as more than just shadows. You see, cameras designed specifically to pick up UV light and nothing else will almost always create "black and white" photos, or "shadowy" looking objects. This being the case, I could believe that Nazgul see in UV, but not in Infrared. The wavelengths are far too different and on opposite sides of the visible spectrum. It wouldn't make sense that they could pick up light of such widely different wavelengths, but not the wavelengths in between.

As for Elves using UV to see which snow can be stepped on, I'm afraid not. You see, snow relfects UV light so well that no difference can be seen between varying depths, etc, as you can see here. The picture on the left is with a regular camera, and the one on the right is taken with a UV camera. As you can see there are no differences in the snow. Also, this picture was taken under UV, and there is no difference in the snow.

However, polarized white light is plausible. Here is an article about NASA using the same method to prepare snow for the different events in the winter Olympics. Using polarized white light, they can tell how hard or soft the snow or ice is, and even how dense it is.

Though it is still possible that Elves could view UV light. Many birds do this. Here's a quote from an article on it:

Birds, though, see differently than we. They can see in the UV, which we cannot. Birds seem to use their UV vision much as the rest — finding prey and mates.

Also, like many reptiles, birds see four primary colors (that is, they have four types of color cones in their eyes that receive light), not merely three like bees or us . Their 4-color system may produce "a range of hues we cannot imagine," says Innes Cuthill, professor of behavioral ecology at the University of Bristol

So, it is entirely possible that Elves have a 4th type of cone in their eye, and infact see in 4 primary colors. Could explain the difference in their art.

[Roa_Aoife]

Of course, we are asuming that they can tell what snow can be walked on by sight. They may not be able to see it any differently they we do, but use other methods- how cold the ambient air is, whether the snow is icey or powdery, and they use the proper shifting of their weight to walk on it. Their natural lightness and thin-ness would be a great factor involved.

Maybe we're just overthinking it.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

. This being the case, I could believe that Nazgul see in UV, but not in Infrared. The wavelengths are far too different and on opposite sides of the visible spectrum. It wouldn't make sense that they could pick up light of such widely different wavelengths, but not the wavelengths in between.

Ah, but Ms. Roa (or is it Ms. Aoife? ) you are wrong. We indeed have cones in our eyes that "absorb" certain specific wavelenghts. Another thing that absorbs specific wavelenghts is the pigment Chlorophyll in plants. If we see the absorption spectra of this pigment, it absorbs well in both ends of the visible light spectrum, but there is a clear dip in the middle. This light reflected comes out as green, which is why plants are green.

And do you know what else is green? the unhealthy green light that Minas Morghul emanates. What is present in Minas Morghul in a higher concentration than anything else?

Nazghul.

Therefore, what can this green sheen be correlated to? Again, the presence of a Nazghul. So Nazghul somehow emit a green light... furthermore, the light wavelenghts of visible light fall right in between UV and IR lenghts.

Therefore I postulate that Nazghul had cones in their eyes that had evolved somehow from Chlorophyll, although this "dip" in the middle of the absorbance was expanded to almost all of the visible light spectrum (thus they only see "light" as shadows in another context) while they see both UV and IR. A side-effect of this is that they also glow with a green colour.

Now, if you are still sticking with me here, when Gandalf talks about the Nazghul seeing Glorfindel he says that they saw him "as he is in the other side". This "other side" therefore can only be seen through UV or IR radiation.

Furthermore, we all know elves are "hot" (if not, ask any Movie-Legolas fans) thus there is conclusive evidence that whatever this "other side is" elves emit IR radiation in it, also known as heat.

This confirms beyond any reasonable doubt the theory proposed by our very own Celuien, the elves indeed melted the snow, let it re-freeze and then walked on ice.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

It seems to me that Nazgul cannot see visible, or "White", light. If they could, they would see the living as more than just shadows. You see, cameras designed specifically to pick up UV light and nothing else will almost always create "black and white" photos, or "shadowy" looking objects. This being the case, I could believe that Nazgul see in UV, but not in Infrared. The wavelengths are far too different and on opposite sides of the visible spectrum. It wouldn't make sense that they could pick up light of such widely different wavelengths, but not the wavelengths in between.

We could assume that, as once being human, the Ringwraiths could see in the visible spectrum, but as they began to fade, losing their physical eyes, they learned to sense radiation in other spectrums. Now, to say that the Nazgul could see in both IR and UV might be wild speculation, but I have seen that others have created tools (cameras) that do the same, as noted here.

I'd sleep much better at night knowing that one of these cameras was watching over that foggy area next to my house, as one never knows what could come creeping out that might remain unseen until it was too late...

[Bêthberry]

Interesting hypotheses here.

So, IF elves and Ringwraiths have this enhanced visual acuity, could this possibility suggest that orcs--who are twisted or perverted elves--have maintained this ability? Would they in fact 'see' better/farther/faster than the armies of men they fight or simply see differently?

Or would this enhanced ability be lost in the process of perverting them? I find it difficult to envision an "orc angel", perhaps because I find it difficult to conceive of orcs at play.

[Elmo]

I'm sure 'keen sighted orcs' have been mentioned somewhere...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, IF elves and Ringwraiths have this enhanced visual acuity, could this possibility suggest that orcs--who are twisted or perverted elves--have maintained this ability? Would they in fact 'see' better/farther/faster than the armies of men they fight or simply see differently?

Or would this enhanced ability be lost in the process of perverting them? I find it difficult to envision an "orc angel", perhaps because I find it difficult to conceive of orcs at play.

Orcs do 'see differently,' as noted, and like the elves see better in the dark than humans. However, in regards to all things winter, I think that, when possible, orcs avoided snow and cold as we don't read that orcs crossed the frozen Brandywine back in 2911 (Third Age), nor read of the existence of 'snow orcs' even amongst the writings or the songs of the Lossoth. Anyway, so I'm guessing that the orcs have little to no 'snow-sense.' Even if they had the ability to see the denser patches of snow, or however the elves are doing it, I think that they would purposely sink to show their contempt for nature.

Also there's that common saying in the Shire used to note that the probability of the event is small to zero, which also speaks of orcs and snow, which is "...like a snowball fight's chance in Mordor."

[alatar]

Somewhat related to the thread: Each day I pass by a neighbor's yard. This lawn is immaculate; green beyond green, each blade of grass the same length as the other, no weeds or even a different species of blade, no blight, patches or stain. Truly an example of what Lothlorien lawn care must be like. The retiree and his wife work on the yard incessantly; it seems so precious to them that when we as a family walk by, I steer my family to the other side of the road so that my children will not mar this grassy carpet. I'd take a picture, but in good conscience (I've had one transplanted in for a 30-day trial), I'd have to explain why, and going into the whole 'snow angel and elves' thing with a stranger - yet neighbor - can't bode well for my standing in the community.

But anyway, it got me to thinking.

Somewhere in LotR, it is said that the slipper-footed Legolas's footfalls barely bruise, if touch at all, the blades of grass upon which he steps. This, of course, is contrasted with the iron-shod orcs that leave a scathing destructive trail. Now, in my backyard, where the grass is pounded down daily by the constant rolling of battery-driven vehicles - that which isn't dug up by the dog - I could walk across the grass and leave no trace. However, in the neighbor's yard, I assume that I could, with a slight press of my finger, leave a print that could be used to track me down.

The question is, then, could Legolas cross this grass undetected, and if so, could he make a 'grass angel' on the same?


**For those of you apt to test this hypothesis, please get the permission of the lawn's owner, as some folk take yard work a bit too seriously.