What if Isengard joined forces with Gondor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-19-2007, 02:31 AM

Also, say the Ring had been lost in the Sea or whatever. Mordor's army in total was much, much bigger than the combined forces of Gondor and Rohan – even without the damage Saruman gave them. If the Ring hadn't been found, and Saruman hadn't turned to evil, the result would have been a much longer and bloodier war, and all-round bad news for the good guys.

mhagain · 02-19-2007, 01:14 PM

Saruman and Gandalf combined would have been nearer a match for Sauron without the Ring, but they would still have been under the prohibition against taking direct action in the War, and so would only have been in a position to give advice.

The point about Gollum is a good one. Frodo would never have been able to destroy the Ring on his own, and it was only through Gollum's intervention that it was eventually destroyed. I don't believe that anyone else would have been able to intervene in this manner.

The story as I see it evolving is:

With the combined advice of Saruman and Gandalf, and with an undiminished and undistracted Rohan available, the good guys can hold out against Sauron for longer, but they don't have sufficient strength to be able to ultimately overcome him.
Frodo and Sam make it to the Crack in much the same way as before, but without Gollum.
Frodo claims the Ring.
With no Gollum to intervene, Sauron eventually gets it back off him.
Much badness ensues.

Gil-Galad · 02-20-2007, 10:29 AM

Well, Boromir would've still been alive... but if the fellowship still would probably fall because Sarumans Uruk-Hai made them fight together.

Boromir might have took the ring for himself too...

Texadan · 02-20-2007, 06:34 PM

It seems to me the question then becomes would the forces of Isengard, Rohan, and Gondor be equal, to or superior to, the ancient armies of Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's my impression, and it's only an impression, that they would not. And the former army only prevailed through a fortuitous severing of a finger.

02-21-2007, 12:45 PM

What if Saruman sent his Uruk Hai army to aid Gondor as oppose to sending it to destroy Rohan?

It is conceivable to think that the Ring was on it's way to Gondor from Saruman's & Sauron's point of view. Saruman could not have overthrown Gondor by strength of arms, but could he have helped overthrow Sauron if Gondor, Rohan & Isengard faught in league, putting their differences aside?

Saruman probably guesses that the Fellowship do not intend to use the Ring, rather they seek to hide it from Sauron. If they go to Minas Tirith, Mordor will attack in great numbers very shortly, hence Isengard is unleashed in a suprise attack on Mordor to repel the threat of the Ring being taken by Sauron. By this time, Gondor & Rohan have prepared a full strength army, which has a choice of joining arms with Isengard to overthrow Mordor once & for all - the temptation is too strong & they decide to go for it.

Would Sauron be overthrown in these circumstances?

This brings the Battle of Five Armies to mind in The Hobbit.

Elmo · 02-21-2007, 01:55 PM

Would Gondor ever ally itself with such monsters whose very act of creation was a despicable act, I don't think so. Maybe if Boromir got the ring

ninja91 · 02-21-2007, 02:05 PM

Well, first of all mansun, Saruman really would not have an Uruk-Hai army unless he had made a pact with Sauron.

But Saruman is very powerful and I do not doubt that he could amass a great army nonetheless if need be. And if he did so, he would surely have helped.

There would be no Uruk-Hai because Saruman created them because he was to "build an army worthy of Mordor". Sauron did not mean to get a bunch of blonde dudes and attack Helm's Deep. He meant build an evil army to strike fear into the West.

02-19-2007, 02:31 AM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Also, say the Ring had been lost in the Sea or whatever. Mordor's army in total was much, much bigger than the combined forces of Gondor and Rohan – even without the damage Saruman gave them. If the Ring hadn't been found, and Saruman hadn't turned to evil, the result would have been a much longer and bloodier war, and all-round bad news for the good guys. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-19-2007, 01:14 PM	#2
mhagain Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch Posts: 219	Saruman and Gandalf combined would have been nearer a match for Sauron without the Ring, but they would still have been under the prohibition against taking direct action in the War, and so would only have been in a position to give advice. The point about Gollum is a good one. Frodo would never have been able to destroy the Ring on his own, and it was only through Gollum's intervention that it was eventually destroyed. I don't believe that anyone else would have been able to intervene in this manner. The story as I see it evolving is: With the combined advice of Saruman and Gandalf, and with an undiminished and undistracted Rohan available, the good guys can hold out against Sauron for longer, but they don't have sufficient strength to be able to ultimately overcome him. Frodo and Sam make it to the Crack in much the same way as before, but without Gollum. Frodo claims the Ring. With no Gollum to intervene, Sauron eventually gets it back off him. Much badness ensues. __________________ Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.

02-20-2007, 10:29 AM	#3
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	Well, Boromir would've still been alive... but if the fellowship still would probably fall because Sarumans Uruk-Hai made them fight together. Boromir might have took the ring for himself too... __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

02-21-2007, 01:55 PM	#6
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	Would Gondor ever ally itself with such monsters whose very act of creation was a despicable act, I don't think so. Maybe if Boromir got the ring __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

02-20-2007, 06:34 PM	#4
Texadan Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Location: East Texas Posts: 38	It seems to me the question then becomes would the forces of Isengard, Rohan, and Gondor be equal, to or superior to, the ancient armies of Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's my impression, and it's only an impression, that they would not. And the former army only prevailed through a fortuitous severing of a finger.

02-21-2007, 12:45 PM	#5
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	What if Saruman sent his Uruk Hai army to aid Gondor as oppose to sending it to destroy Rohan? It is conceivable to think that the Ring was on it's way to Gondor from Saruman's & Sauron's point of view. Saruman could not have overthrown Gondor by strength of arms, but could he have helped overthrow Sauron if Gondor, Rohan & Isengard faught in league, putting their differences aside? Saruman probably guesses that the Fellowship do not intend to use the Ring, rather they seek to hide it from Sauron. If they go to Minas Tirith, Mordor will attack in great numbers very shortly, hence Isengard is unleashed in a suprise attack on Mordor to repel the threat of the Ring being taken by Sauron. By this time, Gondor & Rohan have prepared a full strength army, which has a choice of joining arms with Isengard to overthrow Mordor once & for all - the temptation is too strong & they decide to go for it. Would Sauron be overthrown in these circumstances? This brings the Battle of Five Armies to mind in The Hobbit.