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Old 02-23-2007, 02:13 PM   #1
Guinevere
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Well, after the Squatter's brillant post which covers everything, there's really nothing left to say.

Just a note to Beanamir of Gondor about Gandalf being a "trandescental being" .
While reading LotR for the first time one doesn't know about Eru and the Valar, of course. There are just hints every now and then that there is some power behind it all, like MatthewM said.
And Gandalf the White does say "Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done."
Most information about this is found in "Unfinished tales" in "The Istari" and "The Quest of Erebor".
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Old 02-24-2007, 11:11 PM   #2
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*sigh* I just meant that for silly n00b5 or those who have never read Silmarillion or The Lost Tales, etc., they would have to do an extremely close reading of the texts to get anything about a higher power. Since you don't even know about Arda or where the Wizards came from, you don't know that their transcendence ever existed, much less that it ended when they left Ea.
It's obviously another thread topic, but I think the idea of Gandalf as a Messianic figure is going a bit far, MatthewM. "Coming back from the dead" is sticky terminology... did he really enter the halls of Mandos? (Agh! More Valar!) Or was it just a transitional phase?

This thread has gone drunken-Mr.-Rochester on me, so here I make my exit to ME Mirth.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:41 AM   #3
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Quote:
did he really enter the halls of Mandos?
No, because he went "out of thought and time".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #156
Gandalf really 'died', and was changed... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor
It's obviously another thread topic, but I think the idea of Gandalf as a Messianic figure is going a bit far, MatthewM. "Coming back from the dead" is sticky terminology... did he really enter the halls of Mandos? (Agh! More Valar!) Or was it just a transitional phase?
Well, I didn't say that Gandalf was a Messianic figure, but there is no doubt a connection with the transcendental here. As Raynor quoted Letter #156, Gandalf really "died."
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:04 PM   #5
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I always thought it was a deliberate diversion by Tolkein to ensure Gandalf & the Witch King do not meet in direct battle. He wanted the glory of felling the Witch King to belong to a lesser folk.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:15 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mansun
I always thought it was a deliberate diversion by Tolkein to ensure Gandalf & the Witch King do not meet in direct battle. He wanted the glory of felling the Witch King to belong to a lesser folk.
You may be right, that he was trying to make a point; in letter #156, he notes that "yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands". The point seems to be that Gandalf has succeeded in his mission, to kindle the hearts of Men to battle against evil, and that this battle can be won by them - fulfilling general (race) and particular (witch-king destruction) destiny.
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:15 PM   #7
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Just for some further proof:

Taken from Appendix B: The Tale of Years: The Great Years-

January
25 He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.
February
14 Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.

Italiacs mine.
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