Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

[Thenamir]

Forgive me for catching up on replies to 30 posts in one.

Originally Posted by The 1,000th Reader, post #1

So, why do people root for and like the forces of evil?

The fact is they don't think about the woebegotten serfs and plebes who live out their lives in misery. These are the twisted souls who want to BE the villain, the One In Charge, the one who calls the shots. The ones who think that Good is boring and Evil is exciting are the ones who imagine that they will be the recipients of all the goodies. The ones who sympathize with evil are the ones who fail to see that "good" is good for all, while evil is good only for the one on top, and they want to be that one.

Originally Posted by Second of the Nine

Melkor was a bloody evil idiot who, judging from the sort of places he produced, could not possibly have had anyone's best interests in mind, and he should have just sat down, shut up and played along with the rest.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen, post #2

The sterility of absolute goodness - I am thinking a little of Blake and his resentment of the stifling effect of tradition and the establishment

To that I can only reply

Originally Posted by Thenamir, in several other threads on good and evil

When an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being says to you, "Don't go there," it is not ruggend individualism, nor free thinking, nor creative license to go there anyway -- it is probably suicide.

Originally Posted by Raynor, post #3

How come you consider her selfish...when one sacrifices everything for love

Greater love has no man, than to lay down his life for a friend.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë, post #4

you can like which ever characters you want to like...There isn't a wrong side, because these are just characters in a book.

This is very true. But it seems to me that you can tell quite a bit about a person from knowing with whom they sympathize. If you'd rather be buddies with Sauron than Gandalf, then I'll keep my eyes on you while I feel for my hatchet. (Apologies to C. S. Lewis.) And Yes, Virginia, there is a wrong side -- if you favor totalitarianism versus freedom, you are on the wrong side, for the reasons Second of the Nine states above.

Originally Posted by Raynor, post#5

Doesn't intention in fact define morality, moreso than the materialisation of intention?

Precisely, Raynor. When your intention is to satisfy and gratify youself without regard for the well-being and happiness of others, that is the quintessential definition of evil.

Originally Posted by The 1,000th Reader, post #6

a good deal of them are middle-aged folk

If anyone thinks the Goth contingent is confined to teenagers, you are gravely mistaken. There are people of all ages who are miserable, and would like nothing more than to drag everyone else down into their misery with them -- the idea that someone, somewhere is happy makes them go postal.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë, post #7

There are some Downers who happen to love Orcs, think Melkor is ace and have crushes on Grima. So what? They aren't wrong, but it's definitely wrong to say they are wrong for that as it's a free choice.

LOL -- just read that over again to yourself, saying that it is wrong to say that people are wrong -- can you not see the self-contradiction? Without admitting it to yourself, you are guilty of establishing a standard of right and wrong, while at the same time saying that such standards should not exist! It is certainly not wrong (in the sense of "illegal") to hold such views. But to glorify oppression, tyranny, and self-aggrandizement is indeed wrong (in the sense of "immoral" or "evil"). Whatever happened to the maxim, "Do unto others as you would like them to do to you"?

Originally Posted by the guy who be short, post #8

good and evil are relative concepts. The elves were doomed to hate orcs and try to wipe them out. The orcs were doomed to hate elves and try to wipe them out. To the orcs, the Elves must have appeared as evil aggressors. Supporting them is entirely fair...we have white and black in the Elves and Orcs. All you have to do is press a button to invert the colours.

Heavens! Surely you will not tell me that you are trying to draw some kind of twisted moral equivalence between the live-and-let-live (for the most part) Elves, and the murderous near-automatons of a ruthless and compassionless overlord? "Oh, if we could just undertstand the orcs, learn why their hatred is so great, perhaps we could reason with them, help them find their inner orcling..." This kind of reasoning is what blinds beople into inaction until it is too late.

Originally Posted by Theoden

How shall any tower withstand such numbers and such reckless hate?

I am skipping around a bit here -- please do not think that because I left a post without comment that it was not interesting or insightful. My time is limited. And several posts were adequately answered by others. This post is already long enough, and perhaps if I find more time tomorrow, I will pick up some other points which fatigue does not allow me to cover now. Feel free to flame away!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Whatever happened to the maxim, "Do unto others as you would like them to do to you"?

I personally follow the maxim "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". I am beholden to nobody but myself, and I certainly do not need a supernatural presnece to tell me how to behave. I am mature enough to work that out for myself, and I have been brought up that way by Christian and Agnostic parents. I am one of the most responsible, law-abiding and moral people I know, if I say so myself.

This also gives me the advantage of being able to distinguish a fictional character from a real one. If people who cannot do that wish to judge me for it, then it's not my problem but theirs. Far too many people judge by appearances I'm afraid.

As indeed people judge Goths. Yet in comparison to the herd mentality of most young people you could not hope to meet a bunch of more creative, interesting, intellectual, thoughtful people. I hope to have a young Goth (or similar ) child one day .

And I'm afraid a large contingent of Tolkien fans, including members of this very board, are kids and adults just like that. We are not all cuddly, fluffy little good girls who sit with our hands neatly folded on our laps. Some of us indeed might be pinko commies, gays, ethnic minorities or 'satanic' atheists and pagans. Personally I don't really care what a person is, it certainly does not make them wrong.

The ones who sympathize with evil are the ones who fail to see that "good" is good for all, while evil is good only for the one on top, and they want to be that one.

No. We don't fail to see that at all. But we do know that these are just made up characters in a book and if you really want to judge people for having fun with them, then really, its just sad.

[Raynor]

But we do know that these are just made up characters in a book

However, as has been pointed out previously, this invokes an exception to morality that, as far as I am aware, does not exist. As far as I am aware, this point has not been yet addressed.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

However, as has been pointed out previously, this invokes an exception to morality that, as far as I am aware, does not exist. As far as I am aware, this point has not been yet addressed.

Sorry but it's ever so slightly paranoid to think that the billions of ordinary people who find the bad guys in books or films or comics thrilling are somehow "morally wrong".

If we took things to that extreme we'd be telling kids that Doctor Who was evil because he is a Time Lord and it refutes scriptures. Or that they shouldn't read the Wind In The Willows because talking, sentient animals are pagan. Or that they shouldn't listen to Motorhead as it might make you gay (as one notoriously silly website claims). In fact many people claim nobody should read Tolkien because it encourages witchcraft.

They should get a life.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

They should get a life.

Precisely! Thank you, Lal!

~*~

Now, I have a thought I'd like to share.

In reading over the posts on this thread, it seems to me that few are actually trying to answer the question The 1,000 Reader first posed (and this includes him). Rather, I think a good portion of the posts are not discussing why people might like the bad guys, but actually seem to be criticizing those people for liking the bad guys (i.e. the questioning of morality, etc). Exploring the attraction of the bad guys is one thing, but maligning the people who like them is entirely a different matter. I think the direction and tone of the thread needs a change, then, if this is the case.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Surely you will not tell me that you are trying to draw some kind of twisted moral equivalence between the live-and-let-live (for the most part) Elves, and the murderous near-automatons of a ruthless and compassionless overlord?

I suppose that more than anything, I'm pointing out the great flaw in Middle-Earth, which is that the evil are doomed to evil with no chance or choice of repentance. An orc is unable to repent of its "evil" - the evil is inherent in its blood. And, if this is the case, and morality is defined by intent, not genetics, then orcs are not immoral.

The argument that orcs are evil is similar to labelling the mentally ill as evil. They don't choose to hear voices commanding them to murder. They are doomed to it.

Melkor and the fallen Maiar and Valar may be evil by intent, but not the orcs and the trolls. They are victims as much as the Elves and Men.

Originally Posted by Gorbag, lotr

What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.

The passage in the Stairs of Cirith Ungol always gets me. You see that orcs are slaves of Sauron, as much to be pitied as hated.

If anyone thinks the Goth contingent is confined to teenagers, you are gravely mistaken. There are people of all ages who are miserable, and would like nothing more than to drag everyone else down into their misery with them -- the idea that someone, somewhere is happy makes them go postal.

None of the Goths I know are depressed, and none of the depressive people I know are Goths. I'd say being a Goth is more about being different than about being depressed. Also, as Lalwende says, the Goth subculture, in my experience, is unusually intelligent.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Some of us indeed might be pinko commies, gays, ethnic minorities or 'satanic' atheists and pagans.

Some are all four at once.

[Raynor]

Sorry but it's ever so slightly paranoid to think that the billions of ordinary people who find the bad guys in books or films or comics thrilling are somehow "morally wrong".

What is your argument here? That a certain thing is good because it is popular? That, in and of itself, is an instance of "ad populum" fallacy. Yes, I argue that there is a degree of immorality if we delight in evil qualities, and the fact that many people find it acceptable doesn't make it so. If I may quote Gandhi, the truth is the truth even if spoken by one single person.

If we took things to that extreme we'd be telling kids that Doctor Who was evil because he is a Time Lord and it refutes scriptures. Or that they shouldn't read the Wind In The Willows because talking, sentient animals are pagan.

Your argument is irrelevant because it doesn't address the question, which concerned our attitudes towards evil persons - and not what makes a person evil or not, and not what should we do about books where evil characters appear.

Concerning your first example, Tolkien is a foremost defender of the idea that fairy-tales and religion are not mutually exclusive - quite the contrary.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I suppose that more than anything, I'm pointing out the great flaw in Middle-Earth, which is that the evil are doomed to evil with no chance or choice of repentance.

The subject of irremediable allegiance to evil is not considered settled. Anyway, Tolkien stated in the letters that "there exists the possibility of being placed in a position beyond one's power", and he wasn't having only Middle Earth in mind - and I agree. While having a mythological-level power at one's disposal may ease almost complete corruption of others (Tolkien stated that no one can be absolute evil), even in our world there are, unfortunately, ways to condition persons into evil.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Melkor and the fallen Maiar and Valar may be evil by intent, but not the orcs and the trolls. They are victims as much as the Elves and Men.

However, there are characters (Gollum the most representative) that refuse repentance and persist in wickedness.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

What is your argument here? That a certain thing is good because it is popular? That, in and of itself, is an instance of "ad populum" fallacy. Yes, I argue that there is a degree of immorality if we delight in evil qualities, and the fact that many people find it acceptable doesn't make it so. If I may quote Gandhi, the truth is the truth even if spoken by one single person.

Think about it logically. That so many people find some fun in reading about or watching bad guys would logically mean said billions of people would also be out slaughtering, raping and thieving if liking a bad guy is immoral. But they aren't.

Many villify the video game industry for peddling games based on violence, but only a tiny handful of people who play said games are violent and these are people who you find were usually disturbed to begin with. Even those who supposedly only like thoroughly 'wholesome' things who are disturbed are perfectly capable of turning those 'wholesome' things into sickness, as shown by the sicko who visited my blog this week or the priests and pastors found guilty of crimes against children.

Being into good or bad characters has absolutely no bearing on a person's intentions.

Your argument is irrelevant because it doesn't address the question, which concerned our attitudes towards evil persons - and not what makes a person evil or not, and not what should we do about books where evil characters appear.

Yes it does. The question asks us if people who like 'bad guys' are evil. The answer is "don't be silly".

There's one bad guy who is utterly repellent, more so than anything you'll find in Tolkien, but who has turned out to be some weird kind of anti-hero to decent people the world over. Hannibal Lecter.

In the novel Hannibal we see him on the loose, up to his old tricks, but when the other gang of bad guys are about to feed him to the man-eating pigs we're hoping against hope that he gets free. Even Clarice Starling, his nemesis hopes that he gets free. Bear in mind that this guy is a pure sociopath, someone beyond all hope of reason, beyond cure, he is as close to pure evil as you could hope to get in this world. He east people's faces! But we want him to get away!

Concerning your first example, Tolkien is a foremost defender of the idea that fairy-tales and religion are not mutually exclusive - quite the contrary.

Fairy tales are the remnants of the Old Religion, and the New Religion appropriated so much from it that of course it also appropriated the Fairy tales where it could. Tolkien's theory on Fairy Tale reflecting Christianity doesn't really work in truth because fairy tale is beyond the constraints of religion, in many cases existed as a rebellion and defence against religion - his thoughts are more those of a man trying to reconcile his faith with his fascination for the blood thirsty and deeply pagan.

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

Exploring the attraction of the bad guys is one thing, but maligning the people who like them is entirely a different matter. I think the direction and tone of the thread needs a change, then, if this is the case.

Indeed. Let's be careful as there are many people on here who could easily be offended by being tarred with the 'evil' brush. Just as we don't appreciate being told we don't understand Tolkien's work because we are not Christian we also get the 'ump when told we are evil for maybe getting a kick out of reading about Saruman or Orcs or Dragons.

[Thenamir]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If people who cannot do that wish to judge me for it, then it's not my problem but theirs.

Lalwendë, I apologize if this became a personal attack on you, it is not. I certainly know the difference between fiction and reality. I have nothing against those who enjoy a well-written villain in the context of a work of fiction -- such antagonists are necessary to good fiction. The kinds of people I am admittedly ranting about in my long-winded post are those who also know the difference between fiction and reality, but who also sympathize with and would (if they could) emulate the practices and methods of the villains. In essence, they are calling evil good, and good evil. I humbly ask The 1,000th Reader to confirm whether or not I have interpreted the question correctly.

And Lalwende, I note that you did not address the fundamental logical fallacies in your post which I pointed out.

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Does anyone actually read Lord of the Rings and thinks 'hey let's try and raise an army of orcs and try and take over the whole world'?

No, but there are those who read Mein Kampf and think the same thing. They are probably the same ones T1000R is talking about in his original post.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

The kinds of people I am admittedly ranting about in my long-winded post are those who also know the difference between fiction and reality, but who also sympathize with and would (if they could) emulate the practices and methods of the villains. In essence, they are calling evil good, and good evil. I humbly ask The 1,000th Reader to confirm whether or not I have interpreted the question correctly.

Pretty much. On a lesser note, it is also wondering why some less obsessed fans always say that Melkor was doing good things yet never acknowledge that in the end, Melkor was a jerk and they're just playing.