Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Raynor · 03-07-2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I suppose that more than anything, I'm pointing out the great flaw in Middle-Earth, which is that the evil are doomed to evil with no chance or choice of repentance.

The subject of irremediable allegiance to evil is not considered settled. Anyway, Tolkien stated in the letters that "there exists the possibility of being placed in a position beyond one's power", and he wasn't having only Middle Earth in mind - and I agree. While having a mythological-level power at one's disposal may ease almost complete corruption of others (Tolkien stated that no one can be absolute evil), even in our world there are, unfortunately, ways to condition persons into evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Melkor and the fallen Maiar and Valar may be evil by intent, but not the orcs and the trolls. They are victims as much as the Elves and Men.

However, there are characters (Gollum the most representative) that refuse repentance and persist in wickedness.

the guy who be short · 03-07-2007, 12:22 PM

Bear in mind that Gollum came close to repentance. Appendix B, 11 March, 3019:

Quote:

Gollum visits Shelob, but seeing Frodo asleep almost repents.

Sam drove Gollum away from repentance with his lack of compassion and mercy.

Also... who really admires / wants to be like Gollum?

Lalwendë · 03-07-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Bear in mind that Gollum came close to repentance. Appendix B, 11 March, 3019: Sam drove Gollum away from repentance with his lack of compassion and mercy.

Also... who really admires / wants to be like Gollum?

I've got a friend who fancies Gollum - she says she wants to mother him, and was delighted when I gave her a Gollum screensaver and wallpaper saying "Oh, I love Gollum, he's so lovely."

She's also a Christian. And is delightfully eccentric and kind.

Gollum repents by falling into the cracks of doom, and he is almost there before that stage until as tgwbs says, he is driven away from it. He is consumed by the Ring, so we just can't say for sure he failed to repent as he was out of his mind.

Durelin · 03-07-2007, 01:20 PM

Another *example* is overkill, but my willpower is lacking, too...

(I apologize for this being all over the place...I tend to ramble and think aloud in my posts. Hence the over use of ellipses. Also, apologies for responding only generally to other's posts. There's too much for me to pick out specifics.)

I think I can easily be said to be one who perhaps takes her fascination with evil characters to "another level," as I have roleplayed numerous very nassssty evil characters just here on the Barrow-Downs, and I've done more with evil characters elsewhere, as well.

I am a Catholic (though I must say, I disagree with the Church on a lot of things, and I have many beliefs that coincide more with Buddhism than Catholicism), and regardless of my faith, I am a person who believes very strongly in my morals. I have also been deemed a little "Goth" by many.

I find the exploration of an evil mind, particularly a fictional evil mind, to be quite interesting, and so I love doing it in my roleplaying. In both my reading and writing, I mean to escape. Sometimes my escape is into the mind of a valiant hero with a pristine soul...other times it's into the mind of a...well, a really really nasty jerk. Sometimes I jump back and forth between the two. The reality is I'm somewhere in between the two, because frankly no one is perfect.

What it boils down to is that I think all people tend to be very interested in what they're not. Everyone does a little "roleplaying." Everyone daydreams. Why? Because none of us are perfectly in love with ourselves (People who are "in love with themselves" superficially not being what I'm talking about...nor is that the goal I'm talking about; more talking about idealistic self-actualization.). Is that "morally wrong?"

Perhaps part of why I have only read LotR fully once is actually because of how little there is about the baddies. Maybe I'm missing some exploration into Sauron's psyche. Even if not for something just to enjoy in and of itself, then maybe just for deeper reason for wanting the good guys to kick his butt.

I think most people have an in-born sense of that whole "good triumphs over evil" stuff, regardless of what we deem to be "good" or "bad." Human beings on the whole are really very resilient, both physically and emotionally. Much more than we will give ourselves credit for, I think. So many of us - dare I say most? - have no problem dabbling in the *evil* mindset. Besides, even if we're pessimistic about the real world, in Middle-earth we know the good guys always win.

Exploring the "dark side" intellectually is fun. You can even see if from a spiritual sort of view and see it as a way to deal with the "evil within us." We (general "we," and not necessarily the collective whole) delve into the mind of someone who we can look at and say is "evil," see their reasons for what they do, look at how they destroy themselves and others...all that jazz. We can understand their desire for power and the like, and considering we all know what anger and hatred is like to some degree, we can even begin to understand their reasons for destroying people, creatures, and things.

Does that mean we're giving *insert really evil dude/dudette here* a thumbs up? No, not necessarily. Would I invite Morgoth to dinner? Maybe; I'd just keep count of the silverware.

As a side note - I think I can easily admire Gollum's resilience. The fact that after all that time under the effects of the Ring he still had some sort of humanity to him is astounding. And do remember that this is a magical Ring, and beyond even Catholicism's outlook on *the work of the Devil* in everyday temptation.

03-07-2007, 01:20 PM	#4
Durelin Estelo dagnir, Melo ring Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,063	Another example is overkill, but my willpower is lacking, too... (I apologize for this being all over the place...I tend to ramble and think aloud in my posts. Hence the over use of ellipses. Also, apologies for responding only generally to other's posts. There's too much for me to pick out specifics.) I think I can easily be said to be one who perhaps takes her fascination with evil characters to "another level," as I have roleplayed numerous very nassssty evil characters just here on the Barrow-Downs, and I've done more with evil characters elsewhere, as well. I am a Catholic (though I must say, I disagree with the Church on a lot of things, and I have many beliefs that coincide more with Buddhism than Catholicism), and regardless of my faith, I am a person who believes very strongly in my morals. I have also been deemed a little "Goth" by many. I find the exploration of an evil mind, particularly a fictional evil mind, to be quite interesting, and so I love doing it in my roleplaying. In both my reading and writing, I mean to escape. Sometimes my escape is into the mind of a valiant hero with a pristine soul...other times it's into the mind of a...well, a really really nasty jerk. Sometimes I jump back and forth between the two. The reality is I'm somewhere in between the two, because frankly no one is perfect. What it boils down to is that I think all people tend to be very interested in what they're not. Everyone does a little "roleplaying." Everyone daydreams. Why? Because none of us are perfectly in love with ourselves (People who are "in love with themselves" superficially not being what I'm talking about...nor is that the goal I'm talking about; more talking about idealistic self-actualization.). Is that "morally wrong?" Perhaps part of why I have only read LotR fully once is actually because of how little there is about the baddies. Maybe I'm missing some exploration into Sauron's psyche. Even if not for something just to enjoy in and of itself, then maybe just for deeper reason for wanting the good guys to kick his butt. I think most people have an in-born sense of that whole "good triumphs over evil" stuff, regardless of what we deem to be "good" or "bad." Human beings on the whole are really very resilient, both physically and emotionally. Much more than we will give ourselves credit for, I think. So many of us - dare I say most? - have no problem dabbling in the evil mindset. Besides, even if we're pessimistic about the real world, in Middle-earth we know the good guys always win. Exploring the "dark side" intellectually is fun. You can even see if from a spiritual sort of view and see it as a way to deal with the "evil within us." We (general "we," and not necessarily the collective whole) delve into the mind of someone who we can look at and say is "evil," see their reasons for what they do, look at how they destroy themselves and others...all that jazz. We can understand their desire for power and the like, and considering we all know what anger and hatred is like to some degree, we can even begin to understand their reasons for destroying people, creatures, and things. Does that mean we're giving insert really evil dude/dudette here a thumbs up? No, not necessarily. Would I invite Morgoth to dinner? Maybe; I'd just keep count of the silverware. As a side note - I think I can easily admire Gollum's resilience. The fact that after all that time under the effects of the Ring he still had some sort of humanity to him is astounding. And do remember that this is a magical Ring, and beyond even Catholicism's outlook on the work of the Devil in everyday temptation.