Sam and the Ring

[CSteefel]

The question is whether a line of sight is required for Sauron to see or sense the Ring. I suspect it has more to do with the particular relationship between the bearer of the Ring and the Ring itself. So, for example, Sauron knew instantly when Frodo put the Ring on in Mount Doom, but then Frodo basically challenged Sauron directly at this point. The same question comes up with Gollum, who carried the Ring for 500 years in the caverns of the Misty Mountains and was never sensed by Sauron.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

The question is whether a line of sight is required for Sauron to see or sense the Ring. I suspect it has more to do with the particular relationship between the bearer of the Ring and the Ring itself. So, for example, Sauron knew instantly when Frodo put the Ring on in Mount Doom, but then Frodo basically challenged Sauron directly at this point. The same question comes up with Gollum, who carried the Ring for 500 years in the caverns of the Misty Mountains and was never sensed by Sauron.

Nice insight. And good quote you pulled out there, Raynor.

The question about Gollum is certaintly a good one...how do we explain that? Was it because Sauron's power had not retained the strength as it had when Frodo carried it? I'd assume this is so...

And about the relationships, do you think maybe Sam, in just getting the Ring with no intention to claim it, was better able to avoid Sauron's gaze rather than Frodo at Amon Hen and (obviously) in Mt. Doom?

[Raynor]

And about the relationships, do you think maybe Sam, in just getting the Ring with no intention to claim it, was better able to avoid Sauron's gaze rather than Frodo at Amon Hen and (obviously) in Mt. Doom?

I don't think it is about Sauron's relationships with the wielder of the ring, but his relation to the ring, and if anything helps/hinders his perception. At Amon Hen, the particularity of that place of sight helped him almost pinpoint Frodo. At the entrance of Mordor, Sauron's shadow hindered his percetion; all these are sustained with quotes. As far as Sauron not sensing Gollum, I think it is purely a matter of distance; he was too far for him to sense it, and there was nothing to favor that.

[Lord Melkor]

It may be interesting to note that the nature of Amon Hen may have amplified the effect when Frodo put on the Ring. The Seat of Seeing allowed people to see the surrounding lands as if through a telescope and may have accidently 'amplified' the 'I am here' beacon the Ringbearer would have on Sauron. This would make sense since Sauron detected neither Gollum during his many long years under the Misty Mountains, nor Bilbo during his journey through Mirkwood, in particularly during his battle with the spiders during which Bilbo used the Ring extensively while Sauron resided in Dol Guldur.

EDIT: Ah, bugger. I see Raynor already made the same observation about Amon Hen. That's what you get when you hit 'Reply' too soon.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't think it is about Sauron's relationships with the wielder of the ring, but his relation to the ring, and if anything helps/hinders his perception. At Amon Hen, the particularity of that place of sight helped him almost pinpoint Frodo. At the entrance of Mordor, Sauron's shadow hindered his percetion; all these are sustained with quotes. As far as Sauron not sensing Gollum, I think it is purely a matter of distance; he was too far for him to sense it, and there was nothing to favor that.

Overall I have to agree here. The Nazgul were able to sense the Ring in and near the Shire, but clearly Sauron had no feeling whatsoever that the Ring was there for 70 years. And same for Gollum, when he had it in the Misty Mountains for 500 years.

There seems to be a role for both of line of sight (Amon Hen) and for proximity, at least in the case of Nazgul (who are presumably weaker proxies of Sauron himself in this regard), since they were able to sense the presence of the Ring when Frodo put it on in The Prancing Pony at Bree.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

There seems to be a role for both of line of sight (Amon Hen) and for proximity, at least in the case of Nazgul (who are presumably weaker proxies of Sauron himself in this regard), since they were able to sense the presence of the Ring when Frodo put it on in The Prancing Pony at Bree.

Yes, I agree...that's interesting to look at as well- how the Nazgul sensed the Ring in the Shire and at Bree- perhaps since they knew it was somewhere near, their senses were heightened...or maybe they always had this power, for is that not their main purpose besides leading Sauron's minions?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Yes, I agree...that's interesting to look at as well- how the Nazgul sensed the Ring in the Shire and at Bree- perhaps since they knew it was somewhere near, their senses were heightened...or maybe they always had this power, for is that not their main purpose besides leading Sauron's minions?

In this regard also we see that the Witch King seems to sense the presence of the Ring

...the Rider halted suddenly, right before the entrance of the bridge, and behind him all the host stood still. There was a pause, a dead silence. Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within this valley. This way and that turned the dark head helmed and crowned with fear, sweeping the shadows with unseen eyes.

Although the possible role of Frodo's will in turning aside his thought is also mentioned:

Maybe the elven-hoods defied his unseen eyes, and the mind of his small enemy, being strengthened, had turned aside his thought. But he was in haste...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

or maybe they always had this power

I would say this is the case; concerning the perception of the ring by the nazgul and the recurring motive of barriers, it is stated in Unfinished Tales:

Originally Posted by Hunt for the ring

[Khamul] was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement and that the Nazgul would not touch the "Elvish" waters of Baranduin

Originally Posted by Notes to 'Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire'

Of Khamul it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgul after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.