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Old 03-08-2007, 06:10 AM   #1
Essex
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'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'
Mansun - re your quote from the book above - as I said earlier, does it really PROVE how strong a character is if the character himself says how 'strong' they are? I put it to you that the above is Gandalf's OPINION.

Whereas, for example, the Numenorian blade that Merry used WAS proved to help destroy the Witch King as it was mentioned in the text by the 'narrator'

but to add a further twist to this, can we even trust the 'narrator' of the story, as the LOTR was supposedly handed down from the notes taken by Bilbo / Frodo / Sam after the War of the Ring was completed? What do THEY know of this supernatural blade that was used on the Witch King? - maybe I should delete this last paragraph as it may send as down another cul-de-sac of opinion, denial and arguments...........
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Old 03-08-2007, 06:23 AM   #2
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Aragorn knew:
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Originally Posted by The Departure of Boromir, TTT
- No orc-tools these! he said. They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor
In the prologue of FotR, it is stated that an intermediary copy of the Red Book was made at the request of Ellesar; "in Minas Tirith it received much annotation, and many corrections".
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Old 03-08-2007, 06:39 AM   #3
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well said. that is very interesting. so we CAN forget my last paragraph at least.

but what of the rest? Can we take a character's opinion to be Cannon? I don't think so......
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Old 03-08-2007, 01:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Essex

but what of the rest? Can we take a character's opinion to be Cannon? I don't think so......
Yes, we can, if it is agreeable that the character is an honest, reliable & symbolic creature representing good. If you can't trust Gandalf, then who else can you trust? My own opinion is that Gandalf was the voice of Tolkein himself, a character there to clarify anything the audience did not understand. Indeed Gandalf was the chief of Good, Sauron the opposite.

Gandalf made the claim of being the most dangerous opponent after Sauron on the basis of defeating a Balrog, & through his enhanced powers after his resurrection, so he is a proven force. The Witch King, however, is not proven in combat at the highest level. In previous encounters with Gandalf & Aragorn he has failed, & he did not fancy a duel with Glorfindel either. So there is nothing to measure the power of the Witch King against.

Does anyone know if Mordor had news of Gandalf defeating the Balrog? The Witch King obviously seemed not to have known.

Last edited by Mansun; 03-08-2007 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:26 PM   #5
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The Witch King obviously seemed not to have known.
I suspect the Nine didn't "know" much at all of anything. They worshipped Sauron as God and were deluded not only about Sauron's place in the grand scheme of things but also, no doubt, about their own. Probably intentionally.

The bottom line of the Gandalf v. W-K debate, which is easily demonstrated and I have done so elsewhere, is that Gandalf's enemy, to whom he was an equal match and thus appropriately chosen, was Sauron, not the Witch-King. The Witch-King was a lesser being (by far, in fact) than Sauron his master.

This type of discussion promotes oversimplification, though. Tolkien's definitions of power are complex, and reducing the question to who would win in one-on-one duels is misleading. One of the things that complicates things is that duels do happen, so we know that questions of "power" are not purely metaphysical, but even so the victory is generally determined on a metaphysical level, i.e. the more powerful "spirit" ought to be victorious.

I explain here.

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Yes, we can [trust Gandalf], if it is agreeable that the character is an honest, reliable & symbolic creature representing good.
Well, Gandalf does not always know. He admittedly makes mistakes in judgment. Yet, he also does not brag, and is chosen by Manwe specifically because of his humility. I think in this case, since Gandalf knows the spiritual nature of Elves, Men, Saruman, the Witch-King, and Sauron, we can trust him.

As feebly as Essex makes his sappy point about the small overcoming the great, I do understand it. The idea does not apply to David and Goliath, nor to Merry and the Witch-King, nor to anything in LotR that I can think of. However, the potential of an example ever occurring probably can't be unequivocally denied. Still, there are evidently some barriers which simply can't be transcended:
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[Messenger of Manwe to Feanor:]"Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."

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Old 03-09-2007, 03:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by obloquy
As feebly as Essex makes his sappy point about the small overcoming the great, I do understand it. The idea does not apply to David and Goliath, nor to Merry and the Witch-King, nor to anything in LotR that I can think of.
Can't find an example? Maybe you need to read the book again.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE WHOLE BOOK IS ABOUT. The weak overcoming the strong.

Frodo overcame the WK's attempt to subdue him at Weathertop. He again overcame their attempts to persaude him to com over to their side at the Ford. With his compassion towards Gollum, he helped to destroy Sauron.
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Old 03-09-2007, 04:17 AM   #7
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The weak overcoming the strong.
I agree:
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Originally Posted by Letter #131
[In the Story of Beren and Luthien the Elfmaiden] we meet, among other things, the first example of the motive (to become dominant in Hobbits) that the great policies of world history, 'the wheels of the world', are often turned not by the Lords and Governors, even gods, but by the seemingly unknown and weak – owing to the secret life in creation, and the pan unknowable to all wisdom but One, that resides in the intrusions of the Children of God into the Drama.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR
Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR
I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great.
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:14 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by obloquy
The idea does not apply to David and Goliath,
I think that Essex was using a colloquialism; Regardless, your argument (I assume) was that David had God on his side, and so even if he were smaller and weaker than Goliath, it was God that actually did battle with Goliath. My question is, did not Goliath have God (or gods) on his side as well? If we take the celestial out of it, you end up with an unarmored boy killing an armored soldier. To me, when someone points to this event, it is to mean that the seemingly weak overcome the strong, nothing more.


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nor to Merry and the Witch-King, nor to anything in LotR that I can think of.
I'm sorry; I'm at a loss here. Do you mean that it was Merry's blade, not Merry? Or is 'everything done' by the agents of Eru? One possible example, I think noted by Gandalf in Rivendell (though correct me if I error), is that 'the Shire' thwarts the Nazgul. Think that Gandalf says something like, "Whodathunkit that the Witch-King of Angmar would fail to find and kill one lonely unguarded (except by a gardener) hobbit?"


Quote:
However, the potential of an example ever occurring probably can't be unequivocally denied. Still, there are evidently some barriers which simply can't be transcended:
Think that I'm with you here. However, why do entities like the Christian Satan and Tolkien's Melkor bother? Surely these supernaturally-intelligent beings realize the end of the game won't be a win for their team. Is the play, the process, the road, or like here at the Down's, the discussion, the thing and not the end that matters? Or why else bother?
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:37 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by alatar
I think that Essex was using a colloquialism; Regardless, your argument (I assume) was that David had God on his side, and so even if he were smaller and weaker than Goliath, it was God that actually did battle with Goliath. My question is, did not Goliath have God (or gods) on his side as well? If we take the celestial out of it, you end up with an unarmored boy killing an armored soldier.
If you "take the celestial out of it" you end up with a meaningless myth. In the Old Testament, gods other than the Hebrew God Yahweh are false gods; powerless, and therefore only pagan symbols, not real beings. If you imagine that Goliath had any real gods backing him, you deprive the story of its relevance, since it is relevant only as an expression of the sole divinity of Yahweh. It was never a story of the weak overcoming the strong; it was always a story of Yahweh protecting his chosen people from the surrounding pagans. If you don't share that Hebrew monotheism, there's no reason to believe it ever happened, and there's no lesson to be learned from it. Whether you believe the story or not it is completely misapplied in this discussion.

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To me, when someone points to this event, it is to mean that the seemingly weak overcome the strong, nothing more.
I never said Biblical misunderstanding and misapplication is uncommon.

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I'm sorry; I'm at a loss here. Do you mean that it was Merry's blade, not Merry?
Yes, it was Merry's blade. The blade was imbued with the power of its anonymous maker, which was power enough to undo the protective power over the W-K. How much part Providence played in these circumstances is a pretty wide-open discussion.
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