Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 03-08-2007, 01:13 PM

An observation: I'm chucking to myself how the debate seems to have subtly shifted away from people criticising those who just get some fun out of supporting the bad guys into criticising those who take the bad guys as an inspiration for sociopathy. Quite a different thing, and I'd venture to say you're as likely to find someone inspired to acts of sociopathy inspired by Tolkien's bad guys as you are to find a Leprechaun. And nobody would disagree that sociopathic behaviour is bad. Of course, saying that someone who is just into the bad guys and gets some fun out of it is evil or immoral, is actually quite rude to a lot of Downs members, who we know are decent people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynor

Frankly, moral relativism has no logical standing in a debate.

On the contrary. It takes centre stage in such a debate as this where we are criticising our fellow Downers for liking the bad guys and finding them entertaining (or that's the way it started anyway before the U turn!). Standing back and asking What Is Morality is vital where we are throwing around insults at decent people and casting aspersions on their moral fibre and character.

I aint going to judge others by anyone else's standards, only by my own. I won't be told who to like and who to mark down as 'immoral'.

Sorry but the thought just occurred to me that the point of this whole thread is supremely dodgy! The cheek of it! Why should anyone tell me or anyone else which characters we should like and which we should dislike?!

Can we not get on to looking at the much more fruitful question of why people like bad guys rather than offending people any further?

***Thenamir*** · 03-08-2007, 01:46 PM

Lal, I truly mean no offense, but either you are missing our points entirely, or you are deliberately ignoring our patient attempts to explain ourselves, twisting our efforts into straw men easier to knock down.

Nowhere have I said nor implied that Tolkien's bad guys inspire people to sociopathy, and I don't think that's the point of the other posters here. The reverse is our real point, that there are sociopaths and near-sociopaths (by far the tiny minority of readers) who empathize with Tolkien's bad guys because those characters are evil.

If you are going to debate these matters, please do us the kindness of actually reading what we're saying.

Lalwendë · 03-08-2007, 02:32 PM

Here's the thing though. It's not being said that "there are loads of people who like the bad guys and get some fun from them, and tiny, ridiculously small percentage of those might be borderline sociopaths". That would be OK. It's being said that "if you like the bad guys then that suggests you're bit fishy to me".

That's just plain not nice. Nor is it fair.

Aside from anything else, is there any balance provided by looking at the equally tiny number of loons who are into Hobbits or Elves? Not all of them will be 100% nice either. Being into the bad guys is not a 'marker' of someone to avoid.

So anyway...you agree that just because Johnny or Susan think Orcs are fun and likes to write evil characters in RPGs or maybe habitually goes to conventions dressed as the Witch King or has a Balrog theme on their profile or likes to wind up Elf-heads by acting the minion, it does not mean they are immoral or evil?

davem · 03-08-2007, 03:30 PM

Of course, the underlying assumption seems to be that good & evil in M-e correspond exactly to good & evil in our world. Yet the morality of M-e is Tolkien's morality. Good & evil in M-e are what Tolkien says they are. But the reader's moral value system may not correspond to Tolkien's - & why should it? Why should the reader simply accept that what Tolkien claims is 'good' is actually 'good' - at least as far as the Primary world is concerned? Tolkien may be the 'God' of M-e (ie the creator & to some extent the sustainer), but in the primary world Tolkien is a man with his own values.

The reader has a right to hold to their own sense of good & evil & apply it to the world of M-e - if they choose to take that approach to the story. If the reader prefers the 'evil' characters over the 'good' that is simply their take on things.

It seems to me that there are those whose moral value system corresponds more or less exactly with Tolkien's own & who therefore feel that they can sit in judgement on the moral value system of other readers. One may love Tolkien's creation, his style, his inventiveness, be fascinated by his languages, his creativity, admire the dedication required in producing what he did. But...

One does not have to accept his position on good & evil. One can take any approach, side with any character. To think Sauron was cool & Frodo was a jerk loser is fine & neither better nor worse morally than to hold the opposite view. To think Sauron is cool does not imply one thinks Hitler was cool. A reader who cheered when Morgoth's hordes obliterated Gondolin would not necessarily have cheered when the Twin Towers came down. One may find Sauron cool & not feel Hitler was cool because Sauron & Hitler are not the same - one is a character in a story while the other was a sick & evil human being & Gondolin is not New York.

03-08-2007, 01:46 PM	#2
*Thenamir* Spectre of Capitalism Join Date: May 2001 Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae Posts: 987	Lal, I truly mean no offense, but either you are missing our points entirely, or you are deliberately ignoring our patient attempts to explain ourselves, twisting our efforts into straw men easier to knock down. Nowhere have I said nor implied that Tolkien's bad guys inspire people to sociopathy, and I don't think that's the point of the other posters here. The reverse is our real point, that there are sociopaths and near-sociopaths (by far the tiny minority of readers) who empathize with Tolkien's bad guys because those characters are evil. If you are going to debate these matters, please do us the kindness of actually reading what we're saying. __________________ The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius

03-08-2007, 02:32 PM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Here's the thing though. It's not being said that "there are loads of people who like the bad guys and get some fun from them, and tiny, ridiculously small percentage of those might be borderline sociopaths". That would be OK. It's being said that "if you like the bad guys then that suggests you're bit fishy to me". That's just plain not nice. Nor is it fair. Aside from anything else, is there any balance provided by looking at the equally tiny number of loons who are into Hobbits or Elves? Not all of them will be 100% nice either. Being into the bad guys is not a 'marker' of someone to avoid. So anyway...you agree that just because Johnny or Susan think Orcs are fun and likes to write evil characters in RPGs or maybe habitually goes to conventions dressed as the Witch King or has a Balrog theme on their profile or likes to wind up Elf-heads by acting the minion, it does not mean they are immoral or evil? __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-08-2007, 03:30 PM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Of course, the underlying assumption seems to be that good & evil in M-e correspond exactly to good & evil in our world. Yet the morality of M-e is Tolkien's morality. Good & evil in M-e are what Tolkien says they are. But the reader's moral value system may not correspond to Tolkien's - & why should it? Why should the reader simply accept that what Tolkien claims is 'good' is actually 'good' - at least as far as the Primary world is concerned? Tolkien may be the 'God' of M-e (ie the creator & to some extent the sustainer), but in the primary world Tolkien is a man with his own values. The reader has a right to hold to their own sense of good & evil & apply it to the world of M-e - if they choose to take that approach to the story. If the reader prefers the 'evil' characters over the 'good' that is simply their take on things. It seems to me that there are those whose moral value system corresponds more or less exactly with Tolkien's own & who therefore feel that they can sit in judgement on the moral value system of other readers. One may love Tolkien's creation, his style, his inventiveness, be fascinated by his languages, his creativity, admire the dedication required in producing what he did. But... One does not have to accept his position on good & evil. One can take any approach, side with any character. To think Sauron was cool & Frodo was a jerk loser is fine & neither better nor worse morally than to hold the opposite view. To think Sauron is cool does not imply one thinks Hitler was cool. A reader who cheered when Morgoth's hordes obliterated Gondolin would not necessarily have cheered when the Twin Towers came down. One may find Sauron cool & not feel Hitler was cool because Sauron & Hitler are not the same - one is a character in a story while the other was a sick & evil human being & Gondolin is not New York. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."