Fair Fight

[Celebdil]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Skimming through my newly aquired copy of Morgoth's Ring, I noticed in the Annals of Aman, that because there was only one of Melkor against the many of the Valar, they sent forth Tulkas alone to fight Melkor. This seems a stupid bit of chivalry when the fate of Arda is at stake. What would have have happened if Melkor had defeated Tulkas? Would Orome or someone else fought then? Would the Valar have formed an orderly queue waiting for their chance to fight? The Valar completly lost their advantage of being many against one.

One thing I've always been confused about, is Tolkien repeatedly states in the Sil that Melkor is the most powerful Vala ever, and it really seems sometimes like he's trying to drive this point home so nobody will ever question Melkor's power. But as far as I can tell, he never gives any explicit examples proving that Melkor is the most powerful. And there are quite a few counter-examples - such as Tulkas defeating Melkor in 1v1 battle, and a mere Elf (Fingolfin) giving 7 wounds to the most powerful being ever before dying. I mean, we're told that the Vala have the power to destroy mountains and change oceans, and then a mere Elf is able to deal quite a bit of damage to the most powerful of them?

I'm just curious why Tolkien makes it a point to repeatedly state how powerful Melkor is. I don't think we ever see clear examples of why he's so powerful.

[Elmo]

Doesn't he spend all his power making dragons and the like? I think Tolkien is trying to show that the evil squander their power.

[Celebdil]

Maybe you're right. I don't have the Sil in front of me now, but I remember when Feanor slams his door in Melkor's face in Valinor that Tolkien said something like "he slammed his door on the most powerful resident of Valinor". Had Melkor made the dragons at that point? I forget

[The Might]

He is the most powerful overall.
Eonwe is the greatest as far as fighting with weapons is concerned.
Tulkas is the greatest wrestler.
But Melkor was the greatest of all.
But you are right, by using his powers to corrupt and for other evil purposes he did lose certain powers, for example he was no longer able to change his form and was "stuck" in the shape of an evil lord.

[Elmo]

Here's another side track, if Eonwe is the best at weapons then wouldn't he beat his master Manwe because in the Annals of Aman it says that Manwe has a sword

[The Might]

Well...no, because only a swordfight wouldn't be enough to get the job done. And anyway, I guess it's pointless to think of such a scenario, since it would never happen.
Oh, and I just realised - Celebdil, Fingolfin wounded Melkor 8 times

[Celebdil]

Originally Posted by The Might

He is the most powerful overall.
Eonwe is the greatest as far as fighting with weapons is concerned.
Tulkas is the greatest wrestler.
But Melkor was the greatest of all.
But you are right, by using his powers to corrupt and for other evil purposes he did lose certain powers, for example he was no longer able to change his form and was "stuck" in the shape of an evil lord.

Yes, Tolkien says that Melkor is the most powerful many times. But I can't think of any particular instance where he proves this. Tulkas is said to be a great wrestler and this is proven by him defeating Melkor. But does Tolkien ever give an example of Melkor exerting all his "power" over the other Valar? What kind of power is it? In that world, power seems mostly to refer to the ability to
1) wage war successfully
2) be successful in personal combat
3) create/shape the world

Melkor seems to be inadequate in all these things. He loses many, many wars in the Sil. He loses a fight to Tulkas, and makes a seemingly poor showing against Fingolfin, though he does eventually win. And as I remember, he never really took part in creating the world, since he was off in the void searching for the flame while the other Valar were creating the earth. So what has Melkor ever done to deserve the title of "most powerful Valar"?

[Elmo]

and remember Melkor's wars were (at his strongest) against all the other Valar and Maiar put together... and didn't he also raise the Misty Mountains to hinder Orome. I bet you had to have some power was needed to do that

[Boromir88]

As hewhoarisesinmight mentions, Morgoth squandered a lot of his power into Arda so he could twist, manipulate, and do what he wanted to it. As is noted in The Silmarillion:

The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor...~The Valaquenta

Morgoth would later start squandering his power into Arda to corrupt, to dominate over Men and Elves...etc, and this caused his weakening.

Also, we must look at wording that's used. Tolkien uses 'greatest,' 'mightiest,' 'most powerful,' frequently and you kind of wonder well what does that mean? Melkor being called the 'mightiest' or 'greatest' Vala doesn't mean he is unstoppable and the best at every single attribute. But taking Melkor as a whole he was the 'mightiest.' Let's look at Tulkas:

Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas...He delights in wrestling and tests of strength...~ibid

As far as strength and physical 'prowess' goes Tulkas was called the greatest. This doesn't mean Tulkas was the wisest, fairest,...or any other sort of attribute. But when it came to strength Tulkas was the 'greatest.' You can say that Tulkas was very specialized, he had one trait (strength) where he was the creme-de-la-creme so to say, and that was his specialty.

Being the 'strongest' and taking delight in 'wrestling' it comes as no surprise that he was able to beat Melkor in a wrestling contest. Morgoth was 'great' in several traits (which is probably why in the beginning he was the 'mightiest')...Tulkas was the best at one thing (strength) so in a deeds of strength he was able to beat Melkor. I'm sorry if that's a bit confusing, it's hard for me to get out what I'm trying to say. But try this real-life example if I was too jumbled (I hope your familiar with baseball?):

The best pitcher in baseball is Roger Clemens (I know when we're dealing with this stuff it's debateable, but just bare with me here). Roger Clemens abilities overall and what he's done throughout his career I believe he is the best pitcher.

Joel Zumaya can throw the fastest fastball (he can get into the mid 100's).

Taking this example, eventhough if Clemens is by far the more accomplished and better pitcher...does this mean that if it was a contest of who can throw the fastest that Roger Clemens would beat Joel Zumaya (and everyone else)? No, because Zumaya can throw faster (and indeed he can throw the fastest)...but overall Clemens is a much better pitcher.

Tulkas beat Melkor, because strength and wrestling were Tulkas' specialties but this doesn't make Tulkas the 'greatest' of the Valar.

I hope that helps get across my point a bit more.