Did Gollum deserve death? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-23-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

Gandalf's quote reads: "“Deserves it! I daresay he does."
That's pretty straight forward to me.

In England, this would translate as: "I would be reluctant to say that he does." Sarcasm is important here, as what is said is not always what is meant in the written word. In the US, judging from what has been said by some posters, it would mean: "I believe he does." Tolkein was English of course, & it is clear from the prose & the sharp nature of his words that he is being sarcastic on the side of caution. Besides, it would be hypocritical of Gandalf to say Gollum deserves death & then immediately tell Frodo off for contemplating the idea as though he doesn't. What he is effectively saying is death should not be even considered as punishment to Gollum, regardless of who is making the decision.

Boo Radley · 03-23-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

In England, this would translate as: "I would be reluctant to say that he does." Sarcasm is important here, as what is said is not always what is meant in the written word. In the US, judging from what has been said by some posters, it would mean: "I believe he does." Tolkein was English of course, & it is clear from the prose & the sharp nature of his words that he is being sarcastic on the side of caution. Besides, it would be hypocritical of Gandalf to say Gollum deserves death & then immediately tell Frodo off for contemplating the idea as though he doesn't. What he is effectively saying is death should not be even considered as punishment to Gollum, regardless of who is making the decision.

Sorry. I don't buy it. I'll have to go along with Squatter on this one.

Child of the 7th Age · 03-23-2007, 01:28 PM

Squatter - An amazing post and very well researched, though I don't agree with it all. I believe we cross posted,and my own emphasis is different than your own.

Still, we do concur on several things...that we need to approach this question from a different angle. I would specifically say from a much broader perspective that recognizes the underlying tensions and dichomoties that exist throughout the entire book and not just in the character of Gollum. I also concur that Eru is pivotal to any discussion of moral judgment in Middle-eath. He is the only one in Tolkien's eyes who had the right to make these ultimate pronouncements.

Finally, in regards to all the intellectual energy focusing on the word "daresay", I feel that the meaning of that word is frankly not central to the question in the way that we are making it. (This is true for those on both sides of this issue.) What is more important is what Gandalf says after using that word. When I encounter the word "daresay", I almost automatically hear a tiny whispered "but" coming shortly thereafter . I feel it is the content of that "but" which is critical to this discussion.

03-23-2007, 01:28 PM	#3
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Squatter - An amazing post and very well researched, though I don't agree with it all. I believe we cross posted,and my own emphasis is different than your own. Still, we do concur on several things...that we need to approach this question from a different angle. I would specifically say from a much broader perspective that recognizes the underlying tensions and dichomoties that exist throughout the entire book and not just in the character of Gollum. I also concur that Eru is pivotal to any discussion of moral judgment in Middle-eath. He is the only one in Tolkien's eyes who had the right to make these ultimate pronouncements. Finally, in regards to all the intellectual energy focusing on the word "daresay", I feel that the meaning of that word is frankly not central to the question in the way that we are making it. (This is true for those on both sides of this issue.) What is more important is what Gandalf says after using that word. When I encounter the word "daresay", I almost automatically hear a tiny whispered "but" coming shortly thereafter . I feel it is the content of that "but" which is critical to this discussion. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.