Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Actually, the encounter at the gates is virtually irrelevant to the debate.

The encounter at the gates is pretty much the start of this debate.

Originally Posted by obloquy

It provides us very little information other than that the Witch-King himself might have believed he could take on Gandalf. His opinion of himself is useless. The confrontation does not provide any indication that Gandalf was unsure of his own superiority; all arguments to that effect come from debatable interpretations of earlier statements by characters (as opposed to Tolkien himself).

The confrontation told us that there was no obvious victor if the battle happened. Nobody backed down or showed fear.

Originally Posted by obloquy

And most importantly, relying solely on your visceral reaction to the confrontation for an answer strips away everything that does actually matter, such as the histories and natures of the characters involved.

Like you do?

Originally Posted by obloquy

As for your stubborn worship of an anti-hero, I think I can back up that claim by simply pointing (again) to your completely irrational signature.

You seem to have forgotten me telling you that it was a joke. The joke is that the majority of fanboys (and fangirls) of the forces of darkness love Morgoth and Sauron to death, yet nobody remembers what the Witch-King did, or even remotely remember the defeats of the Dark Lords. The sig was pushing the character limit, so I couldn't go into detail.

As for identifying with Essex, he thinks (or at least thought in the days when I first came here) that the confrontation at the gates was never hinted to be one-sided by the way Tolkien wrote it or any other sources, like I do. He can have his personal opinions on who would win, but he does acknowledge that it was not portrayed to be one-sided.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

As for identifying with Essex, he thinks (or at least thought in the days when I first came here) that the confrontation at the gates was never hinted to be one-sided by the way Tolkien wrote it or any other sources, like I do. He can have his personal opinions on who would win, but he does acknowledge that it was not portrayed to be one-sided.

Yes, that is correct. Even when reading the book for the first time, and in the many re-readings of the book I've had, I still get the feeling that Gandalf is not so sure of himself than Obluquy and others are. It really doesn't seem that cut and dried as some here stubbornly believe it to be.

Like a bad scientist, people take on board texts that Tolkien has written that helps their side of the argument, but forget the odd bit of evidence that refutes this and brush it under the carpet. As I said on my last post, the Istari had bodies that could be SLAIN. They were not supernatural in that sense (as perhaps the WK was) - so the WK could get a lucky strike in (as Merry did of course) and injure or kill Gandalf.

My "99% certain" quote was a bit over the top - it was just to make my point that what we are trying to say is that it is not certain that Gandalf would have been victorious against the WK, and to me, the evidence points this way as well.

[alatar]

obloquy, you know what the sad thing is? Many people will have watched Peter Jackson's version of the events where Gandalf gets creamed by the Witch-King. These people, never cracking the books, let alone reading as much as you have, will always remember how much weaker the White Wizard was, laying prone, unhorsed and destaffed. Persons in my experience have watched completely fictional films of historical events and those films have supplanted the truth in their heads. If you are going to undo PJ's work, yours then is the labor of Sisyphus.

At least Essex and The 1,000 Reader are debating the issue, and even admitting that the Witch-King winning is of low probability (same probability as me liking Pip in the films).

[Essex]

that's a fair point Alatar. Then we must get everyone we know who has seen the movies to read the book, which is of course superior to the films.

I got my mother to read them for the first time and she's 66!

I've mellowed out now and I'm old enough to understand that everyone has different viewpoints, and this thread has explored most if not all avenues of the scene, so there's nothing much more to be said........ so I think I'll retire from this thread (until someone else pipes up with something in a year or so's time and I'll no doubt drag myself back into the debate again!)

[narfforc]

Having just watched the third release of these movies and their Behind the Scenes footage I can now explain why the Gandalf vs The Witch-King scene is the way it is. Sir Ian asks Peter why he doesn't just zap the Nazgul (this is the ones flying about), Peter explains that it is because his batteries are flat and the city hasn't got any AA bateries, so you can see Gandalf doesn't use Duracell and Witchy-poo does.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

you know what the sad thing is? Many people will have watched Peter Jackson's version of the events where Gandalf gets creamed by the Witch-King. These people, never cracking the books, let alone reading as much as you have, will always remember how much weaker the White Wizard was, laying prone, unhorsed and destaffed.

What is even sadder is the fact that obviously PJ figured he had to use this symbolism to prepare his action/adventure- flick-loving audience for Eowyn's victory over WK. It's as if people just couldn't accept otherwise that a mere slip of a girl (with a bit of a hand from a midget) could bring down such oppressive omnipotence. No wonder Eowyn's victory makes some guys cringe.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

No wonder Eowyn's victory makes some guys cringe.

Think that we've discussed this to tears elsewhere, but my cringing is not due to Eowyn vanquishing the Witch-King. Sure, the W-K sent Gandalf the White to the floor, and then a hobbit with a newly sharpened blade (and therefore non-magical) and a shieldmaiden make the W-K look like a crumbled soda can, but that's not enough to earn Eowyn a respite and a little glory. She kills the Witch-King! And moments later she's being chased by Gimpy Gothmog, and without the intervention of Aragorn, would have lost to the orc.

Couldn't we have had her swoon, as if to die, so that we thought her dead and so shed a few tears? Oh, that right, in PJ's world only those that fall from cliffs can come back from the dead...

[alatar]

I finally found my copy of The History of Middle Earth: Volume VIII: The War of the Ring. Thought that I had donated it to charity, or that it was lost in the move. Regardless, here is what it has to say about Gandalf and the Witch-King (text exactly as it appears except where I have bolded it):

There Gandalf stood. And then over the hill in the flare of the fire a great Black Horseman came. For a moment he...halted menacing, and lifted up a great ...sword red to the hilt. Fear fell on all .......Then great rams went on before, but the steel only shook and boomed. The Black Captain.....lifted again his hand crying in a dreadful voice. In some forgotten tongue he spoke crying aloud words of power and terror. Thrice the rams boomed. Thrice he cried, and then suddenly the gate as if stricken by some blast burst [?asunder], and a great flash as of lightning, burst and fell, and in rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. But there waiting still before the gate sat Gandalf, and Shadowfax alone among the free horses of the earth did not [?quail] but stood rooted as an image of grey marble.

'You cannot pass,' said Gandalf. 'Go back to the black abyss prepared for you, and fall into nothingness that shall come upon your Master.'

The Black Rider [?lay for laid] back his hood and .....crown that sat upon no visible head save only for the light of his pale eyes. A deadly laughter [?rang] out.

'Old fool,' he said. 'Old fool. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain. This is my hour of victory.' And with that he lifted his great sword [Added:And then suddenly his hand wavered and fell and it seemed that he shrank.] And [>For] in that very moment away behind in some courtyard of the city a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that far above the shadows of death was now coming once again.

And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns, great horns of the north wildly blowing. The riders of Rohan had come at last.

It seems to me that in this earlier draft the Witch-King's power waned suddenly when day broke and he faced Gandalf. Surely you will argue that it was the changing of the weather, and not Gandalf, that weakened the Witch-King. My counter will be that the rising of the sun and blowing of the wind - and horns - does not make the Witch-King quit the battle, but to seek prey with which he may stand a chance.

Not in any draft, but it is rumored that Gandalf, hearing the cock crowing in the distance, absentmindedly said, "Chicken." Pippin, and others witnessing the exchange, tied the word to the shrinking and retreat of the Witch-King, and so made 'chicken' the epithet that we have today.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by alatar

At least Essex and The 1,000 Reader are debating the issue, and even admitting that the Witch-King winning is of low probability (same probability as me liking Pip in the films).

I'm arguing that the fight was 50/50. As for drafts, the final work is what the author deems the most fitting, so they (drafts) aren't really reliable. The link Alatar posted to History of Middle-Earth Volume VIII even has a quote from Tolkien, saying:

Originally Posted by JRRT

It will probably work out very differently from this plan when it really gets written, as the thing seems to write itself once it gets going.

Just pointing that out.

[alatar]

Amidst all of the hype of the 30th anniversary of the release of the first (or is it fourth?) Star Wars movie, there was a documentary on-line at the History channel and on TV. My son wanted to watch, and so we indulged. Guess who made an appearance? None other than our esteemed Peter Jackson.

He was interviewed and added his two cents about the Star Wars movies. What caught my eye was, in the same documentary, the 'story' of Star Wars was examined. It was noted that SW followed the classical hero story formula (not the exact words) where the hero is trained by a wise old mentor who then must fade into the background so that the hero can come into his/her own. This fading can be accomplished via the mentor's death, so that the hero must take his/her place without the crutch/aid of the old bearded one.

Peter Jackson surely knows of this story formula, and so may have seen the diminishment of Gandalf as essential to the story arc of Aragorn. Unlike in Tolkien's view (or at least my view of the same), Gandalf does not fade until Sauron falls. PJ's Gandalf peaks somewhere in Fangorn, and begins his slide there, which is about the time Lord Aragorn starts bossing Theoden around.

It all makes sense now, and so having Gandalf destaffed by the Witch-King shows demonstrably that that mentor's days have ended.

And speaking of formulas, mathematically speaking, if WK>Gandalf, and Eowyn>WK, and Aragorn>Eowyn, as noted here, then Aragorn>WK and subsequently, Aragorn>Gandalf.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Peter Jackson surely knows of this story formula, and so may have seen the diminishment of Gandalf as essential to the story arc of Aragorn. Unlike in Tolkien's view (or at least my view of the same), Gandalf does not fade until Sauron falls. PJ's Gandalf peaks somewhere in Fangorn, and begins his slide there, which is about the time Lord Aragorn starts bossing Theoden around.

It all makes sense now, and so having Gandalf destaffed by the Witch-King shows demonstrably that that mentor's days have ended.

This is just another case of Jackson's incessant meddling with a perfectly good plot. The more he heads off into his self-indulgent ego-stroking, the more the films become irritating. It is exactly why I still cannot watch the Two Towers movie all the way through (even with the extended DVD). Jackson's need to reinterpret Tolkien is most notably annoying and prolonged in TTT, but inane scenes such as the WitchKing breaking Gandalf's staff are unpleasant reminders of PJ's propensity for banal scripting throughout the trilogy. The further he strays from the lore, the more turgid the story becomes, and sadly, most of his forays into self-indulgence do not improve upon the original plot in the least.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I'm arguing that the fight was 50/50. As for drafts, the final work is what the author deems the most fitting, so they (drafts) aren't really reliable. The link Alatar posted to History of Middle-Earth Volume VIII even has a quote from Tolkien, saying:



Just pointing that out.

Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL

How many did Gandalf face on Weathertop (assuming that it even happened in the movie)? If it even were all Nine, like I think in the books, Gandalf retreated and was chased off by four, and the wizard spins his hasty retreat into something positive by stating that by his chickenhood, Frodo and the others had to only contend with the five.

There were only five in PJ's adaptation, so maybe in the movie Gandalf does face all Nine.

He wasn't at Weathertop when Strider leads the Hobbits there. Gandalf obviously left in much haste, not even having time to scratch a G on a rock. One would then conclude that Nine were at least a match for the Grey Pilgrim. If, in RotK, the Witch-King were made 9X more powerful, he'd then be able alone to have the same effect on Gandalf the Grey.

As we're dealing with PJ's Gandalf the White, I'd then conclude that the WK's power was increased only three-fold.

Originally Posted by alatar

How many did Gandalf face on Weathertop (assuming that it even happened in the movie)? If it even were all Nine, like I think in the books, Gandalf retreated and was chased off by four, and the wizard spins his hasty retreat into something positive by stating that by his chickenhood, Frodo and the others had to only contend with the five.

There were only five in PJ's adaptation, so maybe in the movie Gandalf does face all Nine.

He wasn't at Weathertop when Strider leads the Hobbits there. Gandalf obviously left in much haste, not even having time to scratch a G on a rock. One would then conclude that Nine were at least a match for the Grey Pilgrim. If, in RotK, the Witch-King were made 9X more powerful, he'd then be able alone to have the same effect on Gandalf the Grey.

As we're dealing with PJ's Gandalf the White, I'd then conclude that the WK's power was increased only three-fold.

Gandalf the Grey was not chased off by four Nazgul - he wanted to lure them away from the Ring. Also, when as Grey he could have chosen not to kill the Nazgul, by the simple logic that they were a threat, but not a threat of Sauron's proportions or that of a Balrog. His role was first & foremost Steward of Middle Earth, meaning that if he could hold off the Nazgul away from the Ring for as long as possible, that should be all that he must do.

If there was a serious chance of the Nine killing Gandalf at Weathertop like with the Balrog in Moria, I have no doubt that then, & only then, would you have seen the REAL Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.
He said he was hard put to, as though he meant:"Ok they were were tough but I was never in any serious trouble".

But he was hardly in the state of shock & fear when he retold the encounter with the Balrog to the 3 Hunters in the Two Towers, & that was even when he was Gandalf the White!

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL

Considering the record of the more dangerous Sauron against lesser beings (0-2), combined with Gandalf's words and reactions when speaking with Denethor in "The Siege of Gondor", if Gandalf was more powerful, it certainly was by a very small amount, and thus that is why I say the fight could have gone either way. Nowhere in the confrontation is a phrase or sentence stating that one was greater than the other, and seeing as how Gandalf is perhaps the wisest character in LOTR, if he thinks the Witch-King is a serious threat that could defeat him, I don't have reason to doubt his word.

Also, wasn't the comment of Gandalf being greater than the Nine said by Aragorn before the Witch-King's "power boost" as well? I vaguely recall Gandalf saying something like that to Frodo in Bag End in FOTR as well, though I am not sure.

[narfforc]

I have always felt that Gandalf does defeat Sauron, and The Witch-king for that matter. It is not by outward blasts of power that he achieves this, it is by wisdom, foresight and being one step ahead of the game. Gandalf releases Theoden from the grip of Saruman therefore allowing the Rohirrim to turn up at The Battle of The Pelennor Fields just in time, and it is Gandalf who convinces Elrond to allow the two youngers hobbits to be part of The Fellowship therefore allowing Merry to be present during Eowyns battle with The Witch-king, if not for Gandalf being the prime mover of the forces of good, then the scene at the Gates of Minas Tirith may have been different. Gandalf achieves the prime directive by wisdom and not by the power of force, this was his mission, not to oppose Sauron by way of Power.