A word by any other name ...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

That doesn't seem that striking a similarity to me, Beth. Unlike Winston Churchill, who insisted on 'narzy', Tolkien could pronounce 'nazi' properly, which makes it sound completely different from nazgûl. A closer real-world connection is that between the Gaelic word nasc, 'ring', and Black Speech nazg, 'ring', on which connection I posted some time ago.

Of course, in terms of the narrative setting, nazgûl is simply Black Speech for 'Ring-wraiths'. I'm very sceptical of any reference to the National Socialist German Workers' Party, even though Tolkien did express a profound dislike of several senior Nazi figures. When I get back home tonight, I'll try to find out when the term nazgûl emerged, and see if it corresponds to political events in contemporary Germany. I have a feeling that it won't.

Thanks for the great link, Squatter on the Gaelic sources for the word. Winnie was just playing dismissive word games; he knew better I betcha.

I'm quite sure that Tolkien the philologist would have an impeccable derivation for his word that has nothing to do with the name of the German political party. Still, I'm less sanguine than you that some won't see a superficial similarity between the pronunciation of Nazi and Nazgûl even with a correctly employed t, particularly with the short, plosive double syllabic. They sound so much like nasty, you see, that some are bound to make the association, correct or not.
nasty has been posited as a Middle English derivation of the Old French villenastre (not originally a villain as in the baddie, but uncouth, a rough sort of fellow). There's also the Dutch nesti meaning "dirty," lit. "like a bird's nest" and the Swedish dialect naskug "dirty, nasty". In fact, the word Nazi itself has an interesting history and isn't a name that the German political party willingly took up.

Of course, I'm using dic.com here as I don't have time for an OED followup. My point is simply that the words can be confused. Such confusions occur often in linguistic history. Completely unscholarly associations take root and voila a word assumes a new direction.

I suppose that Tolkien was scholar enough to insist upon his derivations rather than bow down to such linguistic slovenliness. Still, it does provide a bit of grist to the mill, eh.

[alatar]

After I wrote that, I wondered the same thing but then got too tired/distracted to explore the word association further. Thanks for picking up the baton!

Personally, I think that, regardless of the all of the Tolkien and real world etymology, there're certain letter combinations that sound harsher than others, such as naz, which could help characterize the evil folk by the sound of their name. Much better for inspiring fear and nastiness than bombadil-gul.

[davem]

Have to admit that the Nazgul/Nazi connection stuck out like a sore thumb for me on my first reading. Its an idea I had to break myself of early on. Mind you, I'm not sure its a case of Tolkien 'allowing' such a verbal similarity. Tolkien's approach to language invention was more complex - once he had Nazg=Ring he couldn't just change the word root because of primary world Nazis - he would have had to invent another word, account for its origin, its historical development & make it 'fit'.

Which is not to say that he didn't smile to himself about the similarities....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If I were to say something for myself, I never thought about it that way. Most probably because the Z in "Nazgul" is certainly pronounced Z (as in "Zoom"), while in "Nazi" it is generally pronounced as C (as in... erm... oh, you English barbarians, why don't you ever pronounce "C" correctly! As in "Caesar" if it is pronounced with correct Latin spelling).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If I were to say something for myself, I never thought about it that way. Most probably because the Z in "Nazgul" is certainly pronounced Z (as in "Zoom"), while in "Nazi" it is generally pronounced as C (as in... erm... oh, you English barbarians, why don't you ever pronounce "C" correctly! As in "Caesar" if it is pronounced with correct Latin spelling).

Well, if one's first encounter with Tolkien was via the movies or an audio book/radio dramatisation, one wouldn't make that mistake, but when one first experiences the names as words on the page its different. Tolkien, as a calligrapher, understood that the 'shape' of a word on the page was as important as its sound - hence his replacement of K by C - as in Keleborn>Celeborn - done even at the risk of readers mispronouncing the name as Seleborn, because 'Celeborn' looks more attractive & less 'harsh' than Keleborn.

Hence, on the page, the 'identity' of 'Naz-' in both Nazgul & Nazi is bound to strike many readers.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, if one's first encounter with Tolkien was via the movies or an audio book/radio dramatisation, one wouldn't make that mistake, but when one first experiences the names as words on the page its different. Tolkien, as a calligrapher, understood that the 'shape' of a word on the page was as important as its sound - hence his replacement of K by C - as in Keleborn>Celeborn - done even at the risk of readers mispronouncing the name as Seleborn, because 'Celeborn' looks more attractive & less 'harsh' than Keleborn.

Hence, on the page, the 'identity' of 'Naz-' in both Nazgul & Nazi is bound to strike many readers.

Yes, that makes sense. You might be right. I was speaking only for myself though, and in my mother language even the written form of "Nazi" is "Nacisté" Of course, the original is English... but every time I hear "Seleborn" or "Feenor" (I can't believe some people are even able to pronounce it like this with the ä there!) I feel like I am going to jump out of my skin.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

If I were to say something for myself, I never thought about it that way. Most probably because the Z in "Nazgul" is certainly pronounced Z (as in "Zoom"), while in "Nazi" it is generally pronounced as C (as in... erm... oh, you English barbarians, why don't you ever pronounce "C" correctly! As in "Caesar" if it is pronounced with correct Latin spelling).

Precisely my point. In German, z is pronounced roughly ts, whereas in English (and apparently Black Speech) it's pronounced as you describe. Of course, not all of Tolkien's readers would know that, but my point was that Tolkien did know it, and had known it for a very long time before he decided that nazg would be Black Speech for 'ring'.

I promised that I would at least try to track down the word nazgûl, but it's proven more difficult than I expected. It would appear that the first time it occurs in The History of Middle-earth outside Christopher Tolkien's notes is in VII.389, where the word is used by JRRT in some rough notes for the continuation of his plot. As was Tolkien's regular habit during the composition of LR these notes were written in pencil and then partially inked over, almost certainly immediately afterwards. Christopher Tolkien notes:

In those passages where the original text was inked over the underlying text can be largely made out, and it is seen that Haradwaith was present... On the other hand Nazgûl, here first met with, was not, and nor was Dagorlad (the pencilled text had only Battle Plain)

HME VII, The Treason of Isengard, p.389 (The Riders of Rohan).

Using JRRT's habit of idly writing out names and phrases from the newspaper in elaborate calligraphy, CRT has dated this period of work to Winter 1941-2, so the first use of Nazgûl is at some time in late 1941 or early 1942. The nearest I can come to knowing what was on Tolkien's mind at this time comes from the doodled phrases used to date the notes and drafting for the previous chapter: 'Chinese bombers', 'North Sea convoy', 'Muar River', 'Japanese attack in Malaya' (HME VII.379). It was the Japanese offensive in Thailand and Northern Malaya in December 1941 and the crossing of the Muar River in January 1942 which dated these jottings.

This is scant evidence for ascribing a source to the word, particularly since Tolkien seems to have been unable to remember how he thought of it by 1967. From his letter he sounds fairly convinced that the Gaelic word is a likely source for his, but I suppose this will never be known. Personally I feel that the Gaelic origin is the more likely, due to its greater similarity in appearance and pronunciation. If Tolkien did use Nazi as his source then it seems an unusually and unwontedly clumsy link for him to make; and with his vehement denial of the connection between Moria and Morīah as a caveat, I'm inclined to treat the connection under discussion as extremely suspect.