Silmarillion - Chapter 10 - Of the Sindar

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Squatter

For this to happen the Sindar must be dispossessed

Well, even from Thingol's words we can see that he acknowledges the presence of "empty and wild" lands. The only dispossession that occurs would be a theoretical one. That is, in case any Sinda thought that all the land was rightfully theirs to begin with, regardless whether occupied or not, which would seem quite against the respect of Nature that the elves seem to inspire. If Thingol claims any rights, it is mostly concerning his people and where they actually dwell.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

But Thingol describes those lands as "empty and wild" after the disruption of this chapter. Certainly in terms of the lands east of Doriath, primarily Ossiriand, the Nandorin population has been decimated and largely driven out, as Chapter 10 describes. The situation before the attack of the Orc hosts after Morgoth's return is less clear in Hithlum and Dorthonion, but Thingol clearly thinks of these as his provinces, so that he grants the Noldor "leave to dwell" there.

The question is what the situation would have been had the Nandor remained in possession of Ossiriand under Thingol's lordship, and had Thingol himself been in a stronger position.

1200-50

§18 In this time the power of Elwë and Melian reached over all Beleriand. Elu Thingol he was called in the tongue of his people, King Greymantle, and all the Elves of Beleriand from the mariners of Círdan to the wandering huntsmen of the Blue Mountains took him for lord.

The Grey Annals. HME VII p. 9.

The Grey Annals also contain a passage not included in The Silmarillion as published, which makes more explicit Thingol's position concerning Beleriand as a whole.

For it entered into the heart of King Thingol to regret the days of peace when he was high lord of all the land and its peoples. Wide were the countries of Beleriand and many empty and wild, and yet he welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms.

§48 Thus was there from the first a coolness between him and the sons of Fëanor, whereas the closest friendship was needed if Morgoth was to be withstood; for the sons of Fëanor were ever unwilling to accept the overlordship of Thingol, and would ask for no leave where they might dwell or might pass. When, therefore, ere long (by treachery and ill will as later is told) the full tale of the deeds in Valinor became known in Beleriand, there was rather enmity than alliance between Doriath and the House of Fëanor; and this bitterness Morgoth eagerly inflamed by all means that he could find.

Ibid., p.19.

This provides further explanation of his message to the Noldor in Chapter 13, in which he grants them Hithlum and Dorthonion as though these are lands over which his rule extends, and presages more explicitly how the respective positions of Thingol and the Fëanoreans will deteriorate as events unfold. Although it's getting somewhat ahead of the situation, I note that Maedhros responds to Thingol's message by saying "A king is he that can hold his own, or else his title is vain. Thingol does but grant us lands where his power does not run." There is more than a hint in this passage that the Fëanorians would have been quite prepared to take lands by force, and I doubt that Thingol would have taken such a move lying down.

It was probably overstating the case to say that the Sindar would have to be dispossessed had they not already been driven out by Morgoth; but I think that there is plenty in these two chapters to suggest that Thingol and the Noldor could easily have become embroiled in a war over this territory had not the orcs severely curtailed his power. Certainly there is enough here to demonstrate how unrealistic was the Noldorin scheme: they presumed that lands in Beleriand would simply be there for the taking, but instead discovered on their arrival that Elwë had become a powerful king, who regarded himself as the rightful ruler of the very lands that they would have as realms. This is one of the many tensions that will cause defeat at the hands of Morgoth to become a still greater tragedy. This was the point I was trying to make, rather than that the Noldor would naturally themselves dispossess all the Sindar.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Squatter

But Thingol describes those lands as "empty and wild" after the disruption of this chapter.

Imo, I don't think we can argue that the elves had such a density of population that they could claim all Beleriand as Lebensraum, a necessary space for their living, nor did Beleriand cover all of Middle Earth. Even if Thingol's power would have been intact, there still would have been lands outside his 'rightful' political claim where the noldor could have settled; they may have taken all eastern lands, for all he cared.

There is more than a hint in this passage that the Fëanorians would have been quite prepared to take lands by force

I would say that any hostility on behalf of the noldor would stem from the coolness of Thingol, his air of superiority, and perhaps a tint of disrespect.

This was the point I was trying to make, rather than that the Noldor would naturally themselves dispossess all the Sindar.

I know, I certainly didn't believe you would argue for total war. I could see the inevitability of war if all the space was confined to Beleriand, if living resources were scarce and if an insufficient amount of them would have been left for the Noldor; but there were plenty of lands up for grabs even before the rising of the sun. Some of Feanor's sons may have started a war for the heck of it, but I doubt even they fell that low

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Christopher Tolkien’s merging of the two traditions in the published Silmarillion does have some precedent in his father’s writings

An even more dramatic precedent is found in the Akallabeth, which JRRT constructed by interleaving passages from the latest versions of The Fall of Numenor and The Drowning of Anadune, togethger with new writing. Underlined on the page, it looks startlingly like a similar breakdown of Christopher's work on most of The Silmarillion.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Hello! This is possibly my first Chapter-by-Chapter post. I have read the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, am in a mind to buy the Children of Hurin, but haven't got stuck into Histories of Middle Earth or Letters of J.R.R Tolkien yet...

Anyways...

I think that we have a point in pointing out differences in Noldorian/Sindar culture. Noldor cities, even in Beleriand, were often high and powerful, though doubtlessly strongholds. Maedhros dwelt upon Himring, ’after the great defeat’, so even when Morgoth was at strength he refused to go into hiding. Nargothrond was indeed underground, and the Elves defended it by secrecy and woodsmanship, but … (searches unavailingly through the Silmarillion index) … I think the phrase used was: ’fell from the valour of the Elves of old’, or something very similar. Other fortresses belonging to the Noldor include those in the Ered Wethrin, Tol Sirion, etc. which are certainly not underground fastnesses.

Have we mentioned that this is the first chapter Luthien is mentioned?
‘The bright stars shone as silver fires, and there in the forest of Neldoreth Luthien was born, and the white flowers of niphredil came forth to greet her as stars from the earth’.