Turin the Hopeless?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

If, however, we look at when the two works were published then we see the opposite - LotR appeared in the mid 1950's, when Churchgoing (in Britain/Europe at least) was the norm. Every home had a Bible, (which was well read, btw) & most everyone (in Britain again) considered themselves Christian. CoH has just appeared, in 2007, in (again from the British/European perspective) a post Christian world.

This statement reflects, for the majority in the post-Christian world, our shared worldview far better than the 'Estel' we find in LotR. In short, it seems to me that the books have actually appeared in the correct sequence to reflect the change that has taken place in the Primary world...

Doesn't CoH actually feel more 'contemporary' than LotR?

Only to add a little correction to the first part: in Western Europe, to be precise.

However, I agree with the second, though I think it was hardly an intention. I agree with that it corresponds much with the change in the Primary world, meaning now the general post-modernistic paradigm, where there actually is nothing certain and for some people, it can lead even to a loss of hope. We saw the rise and fall of big ideologies of the 20th century, from what streams the experience that nothing can be taken for certain, and people who cannot bear the "non-simplified" point of view can be really shaken. Though, I think to doubt is not a reason to lose hope, which would be for another topic. But what I wanted to say is, that though I agree with what you said, I certainly wouldn't like to see the story of Túrin as "hopeless": though it is a sad story, terrific almost (well... why almost? It is), it is the typical storyline we all know from for example Romeo&Juliet. But I don't know why, Tolkien's works, even "dark stories" like that of Húrin's children, have some light in it. This might be, as you say, the Northern heroic image (and I think we might easily track the source - cf. Tolkien's "Monsters and critics" and what he said about Beowulf). But let's face it, the Northern heroic image is ultimately hopeless. "Great deeds worth entering songs, even if there will be no one to sing them." This is exactly the classification of them. But in Tolkien, on the contrary, even the quoted part from the "last" ride of the Rohirrim, although dark in itself, is broken by the typical miraculous blow of estel (here even literally). Why I never felt the tale of CoH really depressing might be that I knew the context: I knew there is hope all around it, before and after, I knew it will ultimately not end in darkness, I know the light will prevail. If anyone read the tale of Túrin out of context, which would be theoretically possible now after releasing CoH, someone might just see it as one separate dark heroic story. But speaking for myself, I always see the larger world behind it - and to be honest, I think no one will just read CoH without at least hearing (even if he didn't want to) of the larger world Tolkien created, he will know Morgoth is going to be defeated etc. This does not change anything on the story itself, though: the complete experience of Túrin and the folk of Dor-Lómin and the whole Beleriand at times after Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the grave situation, can be felt from the story. But why not, it is the reality of the shadow, the true reality, not some cheap pretending of such a thing - the suffering and pain is real. But still, we know this shadow eventually passes away. (What more, if we take the prophecy of Mandos into account, then even Túrin himself will be the one who kills Morgoth, which I would consider quite "just".) But as I said: I don't need these things and after-world signs to have a "feeling of hope beyond Túrin" - it just comes from the tale itself, somehow, Tolkien-wise perhaps, as I said earlier. Does anyone else in here feel the way I do?

[littlemanpoet]

Would J.R.R. Tolkien have allowed such a work as CoH to be published as Christopher did? Or would JRRT have revised it so as to weave in a glimmer of hope? Who knows?

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Would J.R.R. Tolkien have allowed such a work as CoH to be published as Christopher did? Or would JRRT have revised it so as to weave in a glimmer of hope? Who knows?

Clearly Tolkien saw CoH as one third of a First Age Trilogy, along with Beren & Luthien & The Tale of Gondolin, so I suspect CoH would have remained 'hopeless', but would have been read in the context of the other two Three Great Tales.

Yet it has not been. I take Legate's point about the context, but I also agree that CoH now stands without such a larger context and neither do so many of us 'post Christians' . This is the point - the suffering in the world may be understandable in the larger context of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Hinduism..... but remove that context & what one faces is as cruel & nihilistic as Morgoth.

Why did Turin fight - anger, spite against Morgoth, pride, self-aggrandizement, or just because he felt Morgoth was the biggest @£$%@* around & he wasn't going to get away with it if Turin had anything to do with it!

But the bigger point is, neither Eru nor the Valar actually step in to help him. Of course, with Morgoth & Glaurung making him the focus of their malice he has no chance - he needs divine help - but he doesn't get it. He is left to deal with the horror & suffering of his house - & does it as best he may.

Turin is not an athiest - he acknowledges the existence of the Valar - he just considers them to be either useless or uncaring. They play no part in his thinking.

(Too rushed...)

EDIT

And of course, Tolkien wrote the Narn as we have it after completing LotR, so in terms of composition we are also dealing with a post-'religious' work. Tolkien tells the story of a great victory (LotR) first, & follows it up with a tale of despair & defeat without hope. I also note that the planned sequel to LotR also looked to be full of despair & lost hope. Was Tolkien disillusioned after end of the WWII? Did he look around him & see that his England was not about to return to Christianity (remember the hopes of the TCBS?)?

Is the world of CoH the world that Tolkien saw coming, the world of LotR the one that he now realised had passed away?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

But the bigger point is, neither Eru nor the Valar actually step in to help him. Of course, with Morgoth & Glaurung making him the focus of their malice he has no chance - he needs divine help - but he doesn't get it. He is left to deal with the horror & suffering of his house - & does it as best he may.

Turin is not an athiest - he acknowledges the existence of the Valar - he just considers them to be either useless or uncaring. They play no part in his thinking.

Well, not exactly. I think Túrin might be an "atheist" in the meaning of the word, not that he does not know about Eru or Valar, but it means nothing for him. The switch is on the other side - we know Valar came to help the people of Middle-Earth when Eärendil came and asked for it in the name of both Men and Elves. Túrin is in the state of division, as Noldor were, and he (as well as the Noldor in all their great deeds) is not able to defeat the Dark Enemy, as you said, simply because he doesn't have enough power for it. From the side of Noldor it was foolishness at first, lately just pride not to turn back and ask for help, then, as time passed by, they even "forgot" the possibility of turning back for help: and here the despair comes, which all the other nations "caught" from the Elves, and this concerns even Túrin. Túrin, as well as all the folk around him, does not even think of the possibility that Valar could help the folk in Middle-Earth. This does not necessarily mean he would think "nah, they didn't came thus far, they probably do not care anymore about us" or "they are so angry on Noldor still that they wouldn't help us" (the latter was quite common among the Elves at in the start) - he might not thought about it at all, he might just take it as fact, so may have forgotten even the original question why. After Nirnaeth, Beleriand is in the state of "forgetfulness about mercy of Valar", there are very few who get the idea about asking the powers for help: only people around Tuor and Turgon, for example (and even here it is Ulmo who comes first, unasked!).

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien tells the story of a great victory (LotR) first, & follows it up with a tale of despair & defeat without hope. I also note that the planned sequel to LotR also looked to be full of despair & lost hope. Was Tolkien disillusioned after end of the WWII? Did he look around him & see that his England was not about to return to Christianity (remember the hopes of the TCBS?)?

Is the world of CoH the world that Tolkien saw coming, the world of LotR the one that he now realised had passed away?

I think so. I think the Roger Waters-like thought "what happened to the post-war dream" was quite common at that time. Although Tolkien says that e.g. the Scouring of the Shire was logical ending even before the WWII ended, it pretty well catches the point that by the victorious war, world's trouble is not miraculously solved. And as time passed, the world didn't seem to change into a more peaceful place, but rather fall under the shadow of the Cold War. We might of course say, that the tale of Túrin had some shape even before that time and we don't know what shape it had in author's mind (as well as what it represented to him), so it (or its main points, at least) might not necessarily get affected by the changes in the world that much (as the mentioned thing about the Scouring of the Shire).

[davem]

SPOILERS

Of course, one could argue that CoH doesn't obey the rules (principally the absence of a Eucatastrophe) of Fairy story as laid down by Tolkien. Which begs the question: Is CoH actually a fairy story? LotR is, so is TH, so is The Sil as a whole. Yet CoH apparently is not. There is no 'glimpse beyond the walls of the world'. The tale ends in despair, with no glimpse of hope. What there is, is courage against all odds, a flawed human being defying evil alone, even though he is in the end destroyed by it.

Yet in the end he gives in to despair & takes his own life. He has nothing to live for, having apparently accepted that he cannot escape his doom, & throws himself on his sword. It could be argued that he never had a chance. The trigger had been pulled & the bullet was in flight. It was simply a matter of time before it struck him down. Breaks all the rules.

Yet if is is not a 'fairy story' what is it?

Do we admire Turin? He is, on the surface, a hero - he slays Morgoth's ultimate 'WMD'. He defies his fate. The 'incest' is hardly a 'sin' because he is not aware that Niniel is his sister, so he cannot be blamed for it. But is his suicide a 'sin'? From a 'Christian' viewpoint, yes, but from a Pagan one, or a pre- or post Christian one it is not - necessarily. It is a tragic end for a tragic hero. In the pre-/post-Christian worldview there is no moral judgement. Turin can commit suicide without being judged 'sinful' because in the world of the story his act is tragic but understandable, & he is still a 'hero', because he hasn't 'broken the rules'.

Yet, if Frodo had thrown himself on Sting at the end of LotR we would have been shocked. It would have been 'against the rules'., because while LotR is not a 'Christian' story it is one where a deity is a guiding force, & certain rules apply. Denethor ought not commit suicide either, because that act is against the rules. The fact that he does makes him wrong. Turin & Nienor are not wrong in taking their own lives. In fact, if Mablung had done a 'Gandalf' & started 'moralising' to Turin about having 'no authority' to take his life we'd have responded by thinking him a prig. Gandalf is not a prig - Gandalf is right to upbraid Denethor about neglecting his duty, because in the world of LotR there are certain rules - but those rules do not apply in the world of CoH, which is both an older & a more contemporary one.

Turin has not chosen to reject the Valar, he has not chosen not to have faith - he never had any to begin with - because, as Garth stated

As a boy, Turin poses immense questions of fate & death, but no-one in this benighted world knows the answers. If The Lord of the Rings is an expression of faith in a God who turns events to good, The Children of Hurin expresses a visceral sense of evil undermining everything of worth.

Turin is a man of his (& our) time. No-one knows the answers to his questions, because there are no answers that work. There is no overarching religious vision or philosophy - his world is cut off from meaning & all a man can do is fight wrong to the best of his ability. His actions may be wrong, stupid, reckless, even cruel, but they are not seen as 'sins'. One cannot imagine Turin in the world of LotR, because he is of a different time & place. CoH is almost an 'anti-LotR' - different values, different rules. One cannot 'escape' into CoH as one can escape into LotR. For all the suffering, the tragedy & loss in LotR, there is a sense that there is a guiding hand, that somehow it will all be well in the end - because the characters will get what they deserve. Good will win out & evil will be overcome. CoH stands apart from that vision.

Of course, one can read it as part of The Sil, & see it as the darkness before dawn, yet in a sense that is to cheapen the tragedy, & thereby make ourselves 'comfortable' with the horror. Many of the reviewers of CoH have expressed a dislike of CoH - some of them lovers of TH & LotR. Perhaps that's because, deep down, CoH is the more challenging work, uncomfortable reading without a glimmer of hope. There is no 'escape' in CoH, no happy ending, no eucatastrophe to give us hope. As I said, CoH 'balances' LotR, it is an 'anti-fairy story'.

[littlemanpoet]

How does Turin stand up morally against the Nordic code? (I'm using the word "code" to signify "standard of behavior", just for the sake of clarity)

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

How does Turin stand up morally against the Nordic code? (I'm using the word "code" to signify "standard of behavior", just for the sake of clarity)

I think he'd be seen as 'cursed' rather than 'immoral' or 'sinful' in his actions. His desire to rule in his father's place, to be a warrior, defender of his people, enemy of Morgoth, would be seen as right & praiseworthy. Of course he would also have been seen as overly proud in some things & as one who contributed to his own downfall. Yet, he tried, whenever his temper didn't get the better of him, to do the right thing. Principally, he wasn't a coward - which would count for a great deal in such a society. He would, I think, be held up as a tragic hero who defied his fate. In short, his behaviour & attiude wasn't 'out of line'. He faced the Dragon with courage.

(Sorry, that's a bit rambling....)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

How does Turin stand up morally against the Nordic code? (I'm using the word "code" to signify "standard of behavior", just for the sake of clarity)

There's also Tolkien's own comments about heroism and chivalry and excess of personal glory. How does CoH stack up against Tolkien's comments in The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth?

The hero has an obligation to his people, to do all he can to ensure victory--survivial--for his people in Tolkien's idea of the "heroic northern spirit." Does the ominous [i]lofgeornost'/i], "most desirous of glory", linger over Turin?

I suspect this gets away from the topic at hand, though, which examines hope.

So much for my 'unalloyed' reading of CoH.