Aragorn in Moria?

[Morwen]

The other question I have is, WHEN did Aragorn venture through? Neither Gandalf nor Aragorn were familiar with the change in the terrain (IE, the lake instead of the waterfall and stream) nor were they quickly able to find the doors. It must have been before Balin's attempt began, but what about the orc infestation?

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Possible times that Aragorn might have gone into Moria

1. TA 2951 - 2956

In TA 2951 Aragorn goes into the Wild. From TA 2957 - 2980 he undertakes great journeys and he serves Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor in disguise. (Appendix B - Tale of Years)

The period between TA 2951 and 2957 is one possible time that he could have ventured into Moria. I say this on the assumption that his service to the leaders of Rohan and Gondor and his later "great journeys and errantries" would have kept him away from Moria between TA 2957 - 2980.

He rode in the host of the Rohirrim and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plotsand devices of the servants of Sauron.

LotR - Appendix A (v)

2. TA 2980 - 2988

Around TA 2980 Aragorn, after he and Arwen have plighted their troth and Elrond makes his pronouncement on the matter, goes back to danger and toil. So from that time to 2988 he could have ventured into Moria. I stop at 2988 as in TA 2989 Balin is said to have entered Moria. (LotR, Appendix B)

Since Aragorn does not mention the dwarf colony he probably didn't enter Moria during its existence (TA 2989 - 2994)

TA 2995 - 3017

I like the above as a possible time period for Aragorn's entry into Moria as we are told that in 3001 Gandalf "seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn". In light of the fact that it is in Moria that Gollum begins to follow the Fellowship, I think Moria a possible hiding place for Gollum during this time and it may have been one of the places that Aragorn tracked Gollum to. Actually if the search for Gollum is a plausible reason for Aragorn entering Moria then the time period above can be whittled down further (TA 3001 - 3017) Of course this argument would have greater weight if Appendix B mentioned Moria as one the places that Gandalf and Aragorn searched for Gollum. We are specifically told that they searched "the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor". Of course I don't think that the list is meant to be exhaustive so it's possible that Moria was one of the places searched.

(Although, now that I think about it, did Aragorn say that he actually ventured THROUGH Moria, or did he say he ventured IN?)

Good point.

"I too once passed the Dimrill Gate," said Aragorn quietly; "but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time." FotR, A Journey in the Dark

Gandalf mentions entering from the East and implies that he exited through the Western gate ("If you wish to know, I will tell you that these open outwards. From the inside you may thrust them open with your hand.")


Aragorn's answer is vague. He may have both entered and exited through Moria's eastern gate. Actually, this would explain why he’s unaware of the pool at the Western Gate which was already present/ had come into existence while the Dwarves were there.

[Mänwe]

Originally posted by William Cloud Hickli

I would rule out the search for Gollum- G. doesn't appear to have made it as far as Moria before Aragorn caught him, and T. writes that when G did enter Moria after his escape from Thranduil he got lost and trapped.

William, do you believe this because Tolkien only ever mentioned Gollum entering Moria once? If so, then I agree, but I will attempt to show those who might believe because Tolkien only mentioned it once it does not mean he actually only visited once.

"2944 Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief' of the Ring." - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years)

A period of 7 years follows before Gollum's direction changes;

"2951 Gollum turns towards Mordor." - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years)

Time in which he may have journeyed south toward Moria in his search, and perhaps through it. However I think this most unlikely until the year 2951. Turning toward Mordor would take him east and past the Misty Mountains his haunt for many years. Yet I ask why would he venture through very foreign ground to pass the Misty Mountains in order to travel toward Mordor when he knew the area around the High Pass that Bilbo and the dwarves approached so well?

It is therefore my belief he would have crossed here and not passed through Moria. Which incidently was at time when Aragorn was not actively searching for him. And at a year so distant that when Aragorn did come to search for him, his trail had he passed through would have been 58 years cold. Not even Aragorn would be able to pick up such an old trail surely!

Because of this the intervening 29 years in which Gollum ventured until arriving near the confines of Mordor was always leading him away from Moria.

"2980 About this time Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob." - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years)

"3009 At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron. - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years)

A period of 29 years in which he may for some reason have travelled back west and through Moria. You could ask yourself why, and there would be no reason for him to do so. Other than to continue his search for the 'thief', but why then did he turn away toward Mordor all those years ago. If he thought his 'present' was in the land west of the Misty Mountains he would have stayed.

He has had no reason thus far to enter into Moria. Now he cannot enter Moria. Morwen it cannot be his 'hiding place'.

"3017 Gollum is released from Mordor." - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years)

Imprisoned for eight years of the time you say is most likely for Aragorn to have entered. While this may be true of Aragorn which is evidently the main thrust of your post, it cannot be of Gollum. What about the other 14 years? Again i'm having to rely on no textual evidence but 'sense'. What possible motive has Gollum for entering Moria.

"3018 August ...being hunted both by the Elves and Sauron's servants, he took refuge in Moria; but when he had at last discovered the way to the West-gate he could not get out." - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years)

The choice of words here for me suggest that before hand he had been under no pressure to actually hide. Yet being now hunted by both sides he seeks refuge.

Aragorn let us not forget entered Moria through the eastern gates, when Gollum in my view if he had travelled through Moria was one way. West to east. If Aragorn was tracking him he wouldn't make such a mistake as to travel in the opposite direction.

However;

what is glaringly obvious though which perhaps might suggest Gollum had entered before he sought refuge in TA3018 is the fact he was able to get in! Especially if we are to believe there are only two entrances.

If however we were to entertain the idea of there being others, then Gollum could have stumbled upon it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

"3018 August ...being hunted both by the Elves and Sauron's servants, he took refuge in Moria; but when he had at last discovered the way to the West-gate he could not get out." - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years)

The choice of words here for me suggest that before hand he had been under no pressure to actually hide. Yet being now hunted by both sides he seeks refuge.

Aragorn let us not forget entered Moria through the eastern gates, when Gollum in my view if he had travelled through Moria was one way. West to east. If Aragorn was tracking him he wouldn't make such a mistake as to travel in the opposite direction.

Note: Gollum, as the quote from the Tale of the Years implies, entered through the Eastern gate, not western, as you say. Because, it says he "took refuge in Moria..." and then "when he at last discovered the way to the West-gate..." i.e. he entered the other way than West, and that's East. (assuming he didn't use any other entrance, which I doubt) And, how would he even come to entering through the Western gate? And, how (why) would he get to Eregion in the first place? Aragorn entered through the eastern gate, so if he was tracking Gollum, it would make sense for him to go from east to west, in the track of Gollum.

However, I don't think Aragorn came to Moria in the pursuit of Gollum. In Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien mentions:

In a letter written in 1964 my father said:

There are, of course, quite a lot of links between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings that are not clearly set out. They were mostly written or sketched out, but cut out to lighten the boat: such as Gandalf's exploratory journeys, his relations with Aragorn and Gondor; all the movements of Gollum, until he took refuge in Moria, and so on.

Another part from the Unfinished Tales, which I quote in fullness:

It seems clear that pursued both by Elves and Orcs Gollum crossed the Anduin, probably by swimming, and so eluded the hunt of Sauron; but being still hunted by Elves, and not yet daring to pass near Lórien (only the lure of the Ring itself made him dare to do this afterwards), he hid himself In Moria. 10 That was probably in the autumn of the year; after which all trace of him was lost.
What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria, especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward, his purpose being to find "Shire" himself as quickly as he could; but he became lost, and it was a very long time before he found his way about. It thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the West-gate when the Nine Walkers arrived. He knew nothing, of course, about the action of the doors. To him they would seem huge and immovable; and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust, he did not discover that. In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the Orcs were mostly in the East-end of Moria, and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open. It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.

From this it looks unlikely that Gollum would enter Moria once, then leave and enter again. Also, even to Gollum Moria certainly was not a nice place, and he didn't want to go there once, the more he wouldn't like to return in there - like Aragorn or Gandalf.

Back to Aragorn. I think Aragorn's words imply that he entered through the eastern gate and then again left through the same gate. He could, as well, have come through and open the Western gate by just pushing it (as Gandalf says), but a) he says "I passed once the Dimrill Gate", which does not seem like he passed through Moria, but just the gate (might be he even just walked three steps in, then decided that it's not much nice and left), b) he says "I also came out again", which not only does not say that he must've left through the other gate, but may as well sound like he came out through the same entrance. And c), mainly, Aragorn does not seem to know at all, how to navigate Moria. Gandalf himself explains gaps in his knowledge by it being long ago since he went there, and that he was going from east to west, not from west to east, like Fellowship now went. But, while Gandalf at least tries to lead the Fellowship, Aragorn doesn't at all. Which would seem like he never was too deep in there, and not taken the whole journey even from East to West.

Whatever the reason for his entering to Moria was, it was surely not nice, and I'd consider it something like a "ranger issue", not concerning Gandalf or the Wise or the Dwarves. That's just my feeling, not based on any evidence. However, it certainly wasn't anything super-important, because it's not mentioned anywhere.

Originally Posted by MatthewM

I know what you mean, as I am also re-reading The Lord of the Rings, you always catch something new, or delve deeper into certain details that you hadn't before. Although I don't know the answer to your question, I must say one thing- I actually like how the movie presents Gandalf as advising against the entry into Moria. I don't understand how Aragorn would know not to enter, while Gandalf was unsuspecting to the danger that was within. Perhaps Gandalf knew he was supposed to fall there. I don't know. But from a logical standpoint, it makes more sense to me that Gandalf knew the evils of Moria in the film, rather than in the book where he seemed clueless.

In the book, Gandalf does not know what's Durin's bane, as well as none else, except Dáin who saw it. Gandalf's words referring to balrog before the battle on the Bridge are just:

Originally Posted by The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge.

This is the first time Gandalf "encounters" the Balrog (through closed door). He does not even come to a speculation, it seems even now, he doesn't know much, and surely he doesn't come to the idea that this can be the Balrog. The moment he learns is only when the Balrog actually shows:

Originally Posted by The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

"Ai! ai!" wailed Legolas. "A Balrog! A Balrog is come!"
Gimli stared with wide eyes. "Durin's Bane!" he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
"A Balrog," muttered Gandalf. "Now I understand." He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. "What an evil fortune! And I am already weary."

Had he known what the Durin's Bane is, I agree he'd probably try to avoid the journey through Moria at all costs. But in the book, he doesn't know. You have probably been deceived by Saruman's words when he is browsing through the book and speaking to (not present) Gandalf "You know what the Dwarves awoke..." Do not let the movies poison your mind!

[Mänwe]

Legate I apologise for the lack of clarity in my post. The points were supposed to be seperate.

1. Yes Gollum entered from the east according to that quote. Even I manage to understand that.

2. When he first sought the 'thief' having emerged from the Misty Mountains I was saying it was unlikely that on his "turn towards Mordor" he would enter from the West ( by saying this I am suggesting that in his search he sought west of the Misty Mountains when he came out) and so pass through Moria to cross the Misty Mountains and east toward Mordor.

The fact that this was unlikely I said was because he would not know it. And as you say would not want to pass through it. Thus he used his own 'patch' through the Misty Mountains up by the high pass in order to cross them to journey east.

[Morwen]

Back to Aragorn. I think Aragorn's words imply that he entered through the eastern gate and then again left through the same gate. He could, as well, have come through and open the Western gate by just pushing it (as Gandalf says), but

a) he says "I passed once the Dimrill Gate", which does not seem like he passed through Moria, but just the gate (might be he even just walked three steps in, then decided that it's not much nice and left),

b) he says "I also came out again", which not only does not say that he must've left through the other gate, but may as well sound like he came out through the same entrance.

And c), mainly, Aragorn does not seem to know at all, how to navigate Moria. Gandalf himself explains gaps in his knowledge by it being long ago since he went there, and that he was going from east to west, not from west to east, like Fellowship now went. But, while Gandalf at least tries to lead the Fellowship, Aragorn doesn't at all. Which would seem like he never was too deep in there, and not taken the whole journey even from East to West.

Whatever the reason for his entering to Moria was, it was surely not nice, and I'd consider it something like a "ranger issue", not concerning Gandalf or the Wise or the Dwarves. That's just my feeling, not based on any evidence. However, it certainly wasn't anything super-important, because it's not mentioned anywhere.

RE a - Aragorn describes his memory of the place as "very evil" which , given my impression of him as someone not easily cowed, suggests to me that he must have been in Moria for more than a few minutes, hours or days more likely, for the place to leave that impression on him.

RE c - When discussing possible pathways through Moria, Gandalf consults Gimli, not Aragorn. Aragorn seems content to make no input into their conversations on the matter. However, whatever the state of Aragorn's knowledge of Moria, he could not have lead the Fellowship through it. Gandalf after all was the one with the light.

Boromir muttered under his breath, ... "Who will lead us in this deadly dark?"
"I will" said Gandalf .... "Follow my staff!" As the wizard passed on ahead up the great steps, he held his staff aloft, and from its tip there came a faint radiance"
A Journey in the Dark, FotR

Reason for entry into Moria
Legate, I wouldn't describe it as not "super important". If Moria is not the preferred pathway or destination for anyone, not even Gollum, then whatever prompted Aragorn to enter Moria was a matter of some importance. Also, if "Lord of the Rings" is taken as an account originally written by Frodo, then the fact that we are not told why Aragorn entered Moria may simply indicate that it was a matter outside Frodo's knowledge.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

RE a - Aragorn describes his memory of the place as "very evil" which , given my impression of him as someone not easily cowed, suggests to me that he must have been in Moria for more than a few minutes, hours or days more likely, for the place to leave that impression on him.

I'm not saying Aragorn would have to be a coward, but surely a place can seem really "very evil" to you even if you are there just a short time. Frodo at the Morgul Valley, for example. Boromir (whom I would hardly describe as coward) was among the ones who faced the Witch-King's terror at Osgiliath, and though he wasn't among those who wanted to flee, he certainly didn't want to repeat that experience.

Originally Posted by Morwen

Re c - When discussing possible pathways through Moria, Gandalf consults Gimli, not Aragorn.

And that is exactly what I meant. Why wouldn't he ask Aragorn rather than Gimli, who hasn't been in Moria at all? Of course, he wants a "dwarf" advice - but why doesn't he, for example, ask Aragorn at the place where the three roads are? Even if he would get a negative response, but Gandalf seemingly does not even come to the idea of consulting Aragorn.

Originally Posted by Morwen

Reason for entry into Moria
Legate, I wouldn't describe it as not "super important". If Moria is not the preferred pathway or destination for anyone, not even Gollum, then whatever prompted Aragorn to enter Moria was a matter of some importance. Also, if "Lord of the Rings" is taken as an account originally written by Frodo, then the fact that we are not told why Aragorn entered Moria may simply indicate that it was a matter outside Frodo's knowledge.

By "super important" I mean "super important" for the story of LotR, or for the fate of Middle-Earth in larger measures. And this also makes sense together with what you said about Frodo's knowledge. We have plenty information about ancient kings of Gondor&Arnor&co. that are not in any way connected with Frodo himself, but they are important for the general history. Of course the quest of Aragorn was probably important, but it was, I think, important just "locally" (be it in time, in place or for a certain person). I would say it's highly probable that he didn't look there for any people of importance, items of importance, and so on - the only that comes to my mind now is that he could have looked there for Elendilmir (but why there? Maybe he thought the Orcs could have took it?) or something similar, or someone just gone missing from Lórien (perhaps some high-ranked elf, maybe also Aragorn's good friend).

Of course, there is also a possibility that he sought for something that indeed could change the world, but didn't find it there. The question remains, what such a thing would be...

[Morwen]

I'm not saying Aragorn would have to be a coward, but surely a place can seem really "very evil" to you even if you are there just a short time. Frodo at the Morgul Valley, for example. Boromir (whom I would hardly describe as coward) was among the ones who faced the Witch-King's terror at Osgiliath, and though he wasn't among those who wanted to flee, he certainly didn't want to repeat that experience.

I am also not suggesting that Aragorn is a coward. However, you presented a possible scenario in which Aragorn takes 3 steps into Moria and then exited. I didn't agree with that. Even if he spent a short time in Moria, I didn't think it would be that short unless he had an experience similar to Dain who apparently caught a glimpse of Durin's Bane when looking into Moria. If we agree that his reason for entry was not casual and of some importance (if not to the overall story, then some reason that was important at the time he entered), he is unlikely to have simply popped in and then popped back out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen
Re c - When discussing possible pathways through Moria, Gandalf consults Gimli, not Aragorn.

And that is exactly what I meant. Why wouldn't he ask Aragorn rather than Gimli, who hasn't been in Moria at all? Of course, he wants a "dwarf" advice - but why doesn't he, for example, ask Aragorn at the place where the three roads are? Even if he would get a negative response, but Gandalf seemingly does not even come to the idea of consulting Aragorn.

Clarification - I wasn't attempting to disagree with you about Aragorn's seeming lack of knowledge Moria and I do state that Aragorn does not involve himself in the discussions concerning pathways. I was only pointing out that in terms of leading, physical leadership, i.e. the guy out in front, that role had to go to Gandalf as he has to light the way.