Big Mystery: The Nine Rings of Power - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elladan and Elrohir · 05-04-2007, 02:54 PM

It is of course a mistake by Tolkien, probably a mistake in his writing Gandalf's words at the Council.

But I suppose, technically, if you're going by canon, you would have to say that the Nazgul possess their Rings. "The Nine the Nazgul keep" is not an inverted thought; it is a clear statement from Gandalf, and the context shows his meaning.

Could Gandalf be mistaken? Of course; who cannot? But, I'll just ask the question and open myself up: Is Gandalf ever shown to be mistaken about anything in the text? There are things he's unsure about, definitely. But is he ever wrong? He may doubt whether something is X or Y (e.g., not knowing the identity of Durin's Bane), but does he say something is X when it's really Y?

I'm not saying he doesn't; I just can't recall if he does or not.

That's point one for believing Gandalf.

Point two: Tolkien responded to a critical remark about some of Treebeard's statements by saying (and sorry, I must paraphrase), Treebeard is very old and very knowledgeable, but "he is not one of the Wise" (direct quote) and there's a lot he doesn't understand.

Gandalf, on the other hand, is unquestionably one of the Wise; the implication is that we can trust statements about things like Nazgul if one of the Wise makes them.

So those are grounds for believing Gandalf's unequivocal statement.

Having said all that, I do indeed believe that Gandalf's statement is merely a leftover mistake by Tolkien: he states multiple times in UT and the Letters and implies elsewhere that Sauron keeps the Nine Rings.

Of course, neither the Letters nor the UT are "canonical"; I believe most Tolkien geeks would agree. So I suppose it comes down to whether you're a strict constructionist, going totally by what Tolkien approved for publication, or more of a liberal.

The Might · 05-04-2007, 03:05 PM

William Cloud Hickli may well be right
The sentence The Nine keep the Nazgul does make sense, it would mean that it is through the Nine Rings that Sauron was still controlling the Ringwraiths...so far it's the best explanation

Morwen · 05-04-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

It is of course a mistake by Tolkien, probably a mistake in his writing Gandalf's words at the Council.

But I suppose, technically, if you're going by canon, you would have to say that the Nazgul possess their Rings. "The Nine the Nazgul keep" is not an inverted thought; it is a clear statement from Gandalf, and the context shows his meaning.

Could Gandalf be mistaken? Of course; who cannot? But, I'll just ask the question and open myself up: Is Gandalf ever shown to be mistaken about anything in the text? There are things he's unsure about, definitely. But is he ever wrong? He may doubt whether something is X or Y (e.g., not knowing the identity of Durin's Bane), but does he say something is X when it's really Y?

The problem though is that the contradiction exists within the canon.

Quote:

So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.
Gandalf to Frodo - The Shadow of the Past, FotR

However, Gandalf later states,

Quote:

Yet it is a ring. What then? The Nine the Nazgul keep. The Seven are taken or destroyed.

The Council of Elrond, FotR

I agree that "The Nine the Nazgul keep" is not an inverted thought. Gandalf is making a statement about the possession/location of the Rings of Power. However he appears to have changed his mind as to who actually holds the Nine. If there are sources outside of the canon which support the first statement, i.e. that Sauron holds the Nine, then I think it should be preferred to Gandalf's later pronouncement.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 05-04-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morwen

Gandalf is making a statement about the possession/location of the Rings of Power. However he appears to have changed his mind as to who actually holds the Nine. If there are sources outside of the canon which support the first statement, i.e. that Sauron holds the Nine, then I think it should be preferred to Gandalf's later pronouncement.

Exactly. The point is, that Gandalf was ambivalent even inside LotR (and not just Gandalf - there are even others who speak their words to that matter, e.g. Galadriel).

...and whether you like it or not (Hooray! It's here!), UT is canon for me, as much as the Sil. (but please let's not debate about this further - this is not our topic, after all, and we all want to stay alive

)

narfforc · 05-05-2007, 03:51 AM

Robert Foster in his Complete Guide to Middle-earth has the Nazgul being destroyed with their rings when the One Ring was unmade in Orodruin, this could mean the Rings wherever they lie either with Sauron or with the Nazgul, he also goes on to say that the ring worn by the Lord of the Nazgul may have been preserved, with this statement I think that he is trying to say that the Rings may have been with the Nazgul, mainly because the remaining eight Nazgul are involved with the tumults of Orodruin, whereas the Lord of the Nazgul is destroyed on the Pelennor. I do not know where his source comes from (at the moment), however I will continue to dig (for the sake of this excellent topic, thanks to Legate), what I will say is this and in the words of Christopher Tolkien himself:

'Mr Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-Earth supplies, as I have found through frequent use, an admirable work of reference.'

High praise from one so learned and wise in the lore of Middle-Earth.

Elven Sillyloonymen Ohmygoshello (I am starry-eyed by your greeting).

.

narfforc · 05-06-2007, 07:54 AM

On page 302 of The Silmarillion (Of the Rings of Power and the Third age) Mithrandir speaking to The White Council states: Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three...

It is strange that Tolkien uses the word rules and not holds, keeps or weilds.

In Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring) we are told: They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he (Sauron) now himself held.

I have the feeling that Tolkien saw Sauron with the Nine, one can hold power in Government and rule at the same time.

05-04-2007, 02:54 PM	#1
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	It is of course a mistake by Tolkien, probably a mistake in his writing Gandalf's words at the Council. But I suppose, technically, if you're going by canon, you would have to say that the Nazgul possess their Rings. "The Nine the Nazgul keep" is not an inverted thought; it is a clear statement from Gandalf, and the context shows his meaning. Could Gandalf be mistaken? Of course; who cannot? But, I'll just ask the question and open myself up: Is Gandalf ever shown to be mistaken about anything in the text? There are things he's unsure about, definitely. But is he ever wrong? He may doubt whether something is X or Y (e.g., not knowing the identity of Durin's Bane), but does he say something is X when it's really Y? I'm not saying he doesn't; I just can't recall if he does or not. That's point one for believing Gandalf. Point two: Tolkien responded to a critical remark about some of Treebeard's statements by saying (and sorry, I must paraphrase), Treebeard is very old and very knowledgeable, but "he is not one of the Wise" (direct quote) and there's a lot he doesn't understand. Gandalf, on the other hand, is unquestionably one of the Wise; the implication is that we can trust statements about things like Nazgul if one of the Wise makes them. So those are grounds for believing Gandalf's unequivocal statement. Having said all that, I do indeed believe that Gandalf's statement is merely a leftover mistake by Tolkien: he states multiple times in UT and the Letters and implies elsewhere that Sauron keeps the Nine Rings. Of course, neither the Letters nor the UT are "canonical"; I believe most Tolkien geeks would agree. So I suppose it comes down to whether you're a strict constructionist, going totally by what Tolkien approved for publication, or more of a liberal. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

05-04-2007, 03:05 PM	#2
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	William Cloud Hickli may well be right The sentence The Nine keep the Nazgul does make sense, it would mean that it is through the Nine Rings that Sauron was still controlling the Ringwraiths...so far it's the best explanation __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

05-05-2007, 03:51 AM	#5
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Robert Foster in his Complete Guide to Middle-earth has the Nazgul being destroyed with their rings when the One Ring was unmade in Orodruin, this could mean the Rings wherever they lie either with Sauron or with the Nazgul, he also goes on to say that the ring worn by the Lord of the Nazgul may have been preserved, with this statement I think that he is trying to say that the Rings may have been with the Nazgul, mainly because the remaining eight Nazgul are involved with the tumults of Orodruin, whereas the Lord of the Nazgul is destroyed on the Pelennor. I do not know where his source comes from (at the moment), however I will continue to dig (for the sake of this excellent topic, thanks to Legate), what I will say is this and in the words of Christopher Tolkien himself: 'Mr Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-Earth supplies, as I have found through frequent use, an admirable work of reference.' High praise from one so learned and wise in the lore of Middle-Earth. Elven Sillyloonymen Ohmygoshello (I am starry-eyed by your greeting). . __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 05-05-2007 at 03:55 AM.

05-06-2007, 07:54 AM	#6
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	On page 302 of The Silmarillion (Of the Rings of Power and the Third age) Mithrandir speaking to The White Council states: Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three... It is strange that Tolkien uses the word rules and not holds, keeps or weilds. In Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring) we are told: They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he (Sauron) now himself held. I have the feeling that Tolkien saw Sauron with the Nine, one can hold power in Government and rule at the same time. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.