WW XXXIII - Other Minds and Hands

[Anguirel]

I think Saruman's innocent, slightly annoyingly as if we don't hang him we'll have to endure his insufferable tongue and proto-industrialism for the next fortnight. Nevertheless, that last, magnificent Philippic of a post struck me as bearing all the marks of that deadliest of animals, The Innocent With A Beloved Theory!

Certainly that tirade helps to convince me I did rightly in avoiding voting for him, despite considerable provocation. Besides there's something of a consensus building against him, I now see, which I don't much like the look of.

[Mithalwen]

I have just lost my post gah ... no time but I am here and need to do one of my lists ...

[Volo]

We might have different meanings for the word "harsh", but I do completely agree with Legate, about your, Ang, half-in-half-out-character talk being annoying and easily changed by yourself. If you are a wolf, I suggest you quit it. If you are an innocent, I suggest you quit it. This will always put you into a guilty light, whatever the case.

I'm sure thing going to vote you now. Though you're probably innocent. Your accusation came so out of nowhere. My first post was PURE in-character stuff, without ANY useful content. My second post was pretty much my thoughts as they are. Why no more than that? For the simple reason that I didn't have anything else to say. Are you expecting me to have great analysis for the talk here? You yourself don't have much stuff to say...

++Anguirel

[Mithalwen]

Must you kill my husband so soon? I mean I don't know if he is innocent but he is is charming and fun .... could make an elf queen die of grief...

Kath darling I asked for tweezers not shears !...situation far from being so drastic .. I am not a dwarf..though if Galadriel had a beard it would explain Gimli's crush

*continues reading*

[Volo]

The in-out-character confusion has also a second contributer. Please, Legate, either in-character or out-character.

Kath's is interesting. It might go for trying too hard, as it has a lot of nothing saying observations. Then again, it can be her sincere thoughts.

EDIT: Xd with SPM and Mith

[The Saucepan Man]

At the risk of further accusations of 'palliness', I fail to see the basis for these accusations of harshness against Ang. Perhaps I am just used to his style. However, like Mith, I would rather not see him fall at the first fence as I rather appreciate his wit.

Volo's seeming over-reaction to Ang's vote for him has pinged my radar somewhat.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mac

I don't agree with his interpretation of Ang at all. Is his main point that his in-character stuff could have been shorter? Well, surely it could have, but Ang had more actual arguments inside it than others did. He's accusing Ang for things he himself has been doing.

For the seventieth and the last time, almost every sentence I said had real in-game meaning. This is what Ang didn't do, he was speaking in character, but not just it, it was all... well, strange.

Originally Posted by Mac

Didn't I end up lynching you in that game? There must've been some things we didn't agree on.

At least from my part, I saw you doing all that I agreed with or you came to the same conclusions independantly of me, and the only thing you did which I didn't agree with was my lynching.
Which, in mirroring that game, I would really NOT like to see...

Originally Posted by Mac

Then in the end, he apologises to people who might think he's offensive, because he is just playing Saruman. In the same paragraph, he accuses me, the anonymous orc, of being offensive. I can't see the sense in this.

Oh, sorry if it was that - my fault, I didn't look what your role is. Or, I knew you are "7th orc in 3rd row", but it didn't came to me that it's "Orc". The image in my head was "some warrior in 3rd row", which in role would mean a person who does not say anything in the whole film. Then only the accusation of me posting only banter remains, and for that, cf. above.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mith

Actually if there is a love fest going on (other than Ang and my IC one) it is Legate and Sixth it seems to me.

Not from my part. If Six is a cobbler and thinks me a wolf or vice versa, that might be, but for myself, nope.

Other people:

Concerning Ang, now I am in the typical situation of contradiction when a person you suspect proclaims you innocent.

Brinniel is the typical example of "more-or-less-neutral" person. Even if she were a Wolf, after what we did to her last time (well... and not just last...), I'm probably not voting for her at least the next two days.

Kath then... she makes sense, but somehow the way she says it in a way that it seems... fishy. I don't have anything specific now, I have to look to it more.

SpM hasn't convinced me at all of his innocence.

Volo: And what are you, then? Some sort of a role that just mixes other people's roles or something like that? What's your goal? What side are you on? When you started of it, it must mean you don't care - or what?

[Macalaure]

Something about the Legate of Nan Curunír:

I don't agree with his interpretation of Ang at all. Is his main point that his in-character stuff could have been shorter? Well, surely it could have, but Ang had more actual arguments inside it than others did. He's accusing Ang for things he himself has been doing.

In fact, Anguirel is the only one whom I would dare to declare innocentish at this early time.

I wonder: Why does Legate emphasise that he came to the same conclusion as Six independantly?
But I guess it's premature to go and construct any links between people (which Legate passionately does). Maybe I'm paranoid because these two are my main suspects for now.

Legate's case of the Saucepan Man looks almost constructed to me. Lommy and I jumped on Six equally fast. Legate is founding far too much of his analysis upon Six's innocence, and if his ways are innocent, then they're misguided. In fact, as others have pointed out already, this is not so unlikely.

Originally Posted by Legate, about me

...when I was innocent and him as well, we were pretty much agreeing on many things.

Didn't I end up lynching you in that game? There must've been some things we didn't agree on.

Then in the end, he apologises to people who might think he's offensive, because he is just playing Saruman. In the same paragraph, he accuses me, the anonymous orc, of being offensive. I can't see the sense in this.


I will probably vote for Legate or Six today, or maybe Volo for good reasons that others have already stated. I really wouldn't like to lose Ang today.

[Volo]

I'm pretty sure that either Mac or Ang (or both) are wolves.

Unless Rikae had thought of something even more sinister for Mac.

Ang has been the loud suspicious wolf. And pretty much Mac too. I really don't know what to think of this... The itchy feeling that Mac is trying to get closer to Ang assailed me. Oh, botheration.

Is Ang always like that? Even as a wolf?

EDIT: Xd with Mith and Ang.

Mith, I wouldn't go too hard on analysing the quiet ones.
1. There is nothing to analyse.
2. They'll be lynched from paranoia at the latest.

Ang. Everybody has a retractable vote, except Boro. So, we can still do much here. I don't really want to lynch you, but you are far from innocentish to me...

[Anguirel]

My jokes are marginally better when I'm a wolf.

My strategy is marginally better when I'm a Ranger.

(Not that I am. Just fiddling with a correlation there)

Oh, and by the way, I quite agree, all this complaining about mixing IC and OOC talk is nonsense. For me the whole point of this game is having fun with a role while extracting some cursory tactical thinking...

[Mithalwen]

Ang is like that .... - less so I would say when wolvish.. but I am biased. He is very like that when gifted too and his protestation that he isn't might be worth considering BEFORE he gets lynched.
I don't KNOW his status, I suspect he would be more cautious if he were wolvish. He is one of life's cavaliers .. that may not win him friends among the roundheads but it doesn' t make him a wolf. I really don't know why he is found os much more suspicious than Legate say - and indeed Mac.... both have been a bit scratchy? Of course some things get lost in translation even when the ESL players have such a good standard as they have ...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Volo

SPM, toss me a vegetarian soup, would you please!

Vege-what? I can do you a vegemite sandwich, if you want.

Well, a bit more to get my teeth into now. So, here goes ...

Rikae – Would undoubtedly have been either a Wolf or the Seer, were she not dead.

Volo – First post mere banter. Has recently returned to note a few suspicions. But nothing solid.

Legate of Amon Lanc – Much interaction with Ang and Mith at the beginning, but little substance (despite his protestations to the contrary). Exhorted everyone to talk (or everyone then present, as he later claimed) and then got rather defensive in response to a mild rebuke from Ang. More substance in his latest post, although I find it strange that he should suspect Ang for being ‘in-character’ for too long, given his own behaviour in this regard. His comments about me are, of course, pure nonsense and look to be somewhat retaliatory in nature.

Macalaure – Laid into the continuing banterers with vigour, subsequently claiming that he was attempting to stir things up (difficult to see what this was designed to achieve, if so). Accused Rune of being defensive, then got rather defensive himself when challenged on his stance against bantering.

Boromir88 – Voted for himself (effectively wasting his first vote, seemingly in the cause of character development), then retracted to vote for Ang, for no other reason than the latter was being too chirpy. Rather erratic behaviour but, as others have noted, that can be his way.

Mithalwen – Has appeared to glide serenely through the proceedings thus far, and has done little to raise suspicion. This could be because she is innocent or it could be because she wants to give that impression. Did raise a few substantive points ‘in character’, as it were. Linked with Ang, albeit through their choice of roles.

Shastanis Althreduin – Nought but banter.

Durelin – Nought, full stop.

Xyzzy – Again, nought but banter.

Brinniel – First post banter. Her recent post focussed on Sixth and Legate (ie those currently topping the ‘most discussed’ chart) .

Thinlómien – One of the more substantive contributors. Can’t really fault her vote for Sixth, given my own suspicion of him. Nothing to raise any alarms with me so far.

The Sixth Wizard – Jumped on my flippant accusation of Ang, although he claims to have suspected him independently. Hasn’t really explained his vote, save by reference to Ang being one of the more talkative of those present. But one or two others have been equally talkative, so why Ang in particular?

Anguirel – Some substance amidst the opening flim-flammery. Mild skirmish with Legate, both in-character and in relation to Legate’s request for discussion. The only thing that I thought slightly odd was his early suggestion that the Wolves might look to distance themselves from each other. Well, not if that’s what people are looking for, they won’t. Could be a comment designed to conceal his allegiances, should he later prove malign. His recent comments on his likely vote look genuine enough.

Kath – Not sure what to make of her mysterious ‘issue’ that she decided not to raise and now claims to have changed her mind about. Why mention it at all in the first place? Her recent analysis looks pretty solid, though, with some good points raised, although I'm not sure where she got the idea that I raised the possibility of Lovers.

Gil-Galad – He came. He posted. He said he didn’t like Day 1s. And that’s about it. Where the expansive Gil of recent times?

Aganzir – Like Volo, first post was mere banter, followed up recently with a few thoughts. Nothing to raise my concerns.

Rune – Bit of banter. Other than that, his main contribution has been to challenge Mac’s criticism of the banterers.

Diamond18 – Early vote for Gil could have been an attempt to start a bandwagon. But she appears to have been obliged to vote early, and there was little to go on at that stage.

Voting thus far:

Diamond: ++Gil-Galad (Gil-1)
Boromir: ++Boromir (Gil-1, Boro-1)
Boromir: --Boromir, ++Anguirel (Gil-1, Anguirel-1)
SpM: ++Sixth (Gil-1, Anguirel-1, Sixth-1)
Sixth: ++Anguirel (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-1)
Lommy: ++Sixth (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-2)
Kath: ++Rune (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-2, Rune-1)
Ang: ++Volo (Gil-1, Anguirel-2, Sixth-2, Rune-1, Volo-1)

I must conclude that, purely on the basis of my own analysis, Legate is looking rather suspicious. That said, I can certainly appreciate the possibility that he is an over-thinking innocent (having fallen into that trap myself on more than one occasion). His recent post looks to draw much firmer conclusions that I would expect from a Wolf on Day 1. And I too am wary of the suspicion gathering around him, albeit witout a vote thus far.

So I'll leave my vote for Sixer to stand for now. I'm not sure where this idea that he is inexperienced is coming from? Isn't he a veteran of something like three games now?

Edit: Crossed with Volo, as is often the way with villager-by-villager analyses.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

On to the voting. . .

So far the person that has jumped the most to my attention has been Mac, but you probably noticed that. The problem is that it does not take very much to do that on day one. His sugestion attitude did seem weird, but I also have to be aware of the fact that he actually could just be an innocent wanting to get us all talking.

For this time I shall leave him be and I will just have to see what tomorrow brings.

Originally Posted by Volo

Mith I'm inclined to trust, though again, she hasn't said anything that I see other that in-character stuff.

Lommy's vote speaks well for her, but we shall see, we shall see.

Legate and Aganzir I find innocentish.

I'm more afraid of Mac and Ang, maybe purely for their harsh tone (and because I'm paranoid after learning that I'm "the confused innocent"). I'll try not to prosecute without solid factss.


SPM, toss me a vegetarian soup, would you please!

Now this post is interesting. . .

He trusts a person even though he does not think she has said anything of substance. . . that is odd.

I have expirienced that people had an innocent feel to them, but to trust them is a very radical thing to do.

I my self do not find Mith suspiciouse, but I do not trust her.

And how does Lommy's vote speak well for her? that one I do not understand. The rest seems unbased as well, but more resonable as Volo only seem to be talking about feelings.

anyways Volo seems like the best option at this point.

++Volo

EDIT: Cross posted with SPM

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have expirienced that people had an innocent feel to them, but to trust them is a very radical thing to do.

Please, don't twist my words. Yes, it's not a fact as that of a Seer, and even then the Seer can be wrong. So of course I can't fully know that she is innocent, though I think she is.

And don't waste your votes on me, you won't be able to kill me anyway... I'm one of the special roles... That is, I can't be lynched or killed.

EDIT: And instead of dying, my role will be revealed if I'm "lynched" or "killed".

(Sorry, I'm not in a mood now and not too optimistic for keeping the role a secret.)

[Anguirel]

Okay. I believe Volo's probably telling the truth about his role, though what purpose an unkillable bodger serves I have very little idea.

I'd like to stress, my dear friends, that I am not at all unkillable, have very nicely combed silver hair, am quite wise, still have a vote to chuck around, and don't especially want to bite it just yet. Though it would be good for my acting schedule, what with my, ah, upcoming roles as King John, Sophocles, Chaucer and Aeneas (it's just amazing how much like my A Levels my acting career seems at the moment...real deja vu...)

That apart, erm, my brilliant original suspect choice seems to have gone awry, and I'll reserve my decision until the nailbiting last minute.

[Mithalwen]

Actually if there is a love fest going on (other than Ang and my IC one) it is Legate and Sixth it seems to me. That is a bit creepy but would 2 wolves be so bold? Maybe... wolf and cobbler-type-person might maybe..

Really don't like Mac's attitude to the IC posts - I was IC but I was also making the stating the bleeding obvious reminders that I am prone to if I am able to post early in teh day when there isn't a lot else to talk about. I see nothing suspicious in suggesting peopel bear in mind what we are up against as they read posts, to think of the various possible dynamics.

Also there were only 3 of us posting ... all with book characters and great lines to play with - did you really not expect us to fill the vacuum with a bit of fun.

More suspicious surely are those who flip in make a brief IC post and that is it.

Nominations in this category: Gil, Shasta, Xyzzy ( a few others narrowly missed nomination)

Boro and Di havn't been around much. Boro is prone to stir things up and though normally I wouldn't approve of selfvotes / frivolous votes the IC context made it funny enough to forgive him.

Di - well I wonder about Gil's sig too .... Gil is impossible to read .... he can be very right or very wrong ...

SpM seems ok so far .... and without anything concrete I prefer to hang on to "talkers".

[The Saucepan Man]

Apologies if I am misunderstanding you, Volo, but you appear to be making no sense. Since when can a Seer's dreams be wrong?

As for your claimed role, I thought that you were joking, but then your edit would suggest that you are serious. But, if you are unkillable and unlynchable, what possible downside might there be to you revealing your role anyway? Unless, you are either on the side of the Wolves or on neither the side of the Wolves nor the villagers, and merely out for yourself.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Apologies if I am misunderstanding you, Volo, but you appear to be making no sense. Since when can a Seer's dreams be wrong?

I am afraid I haven't followed all the games I haven't played - but isn't htere a false seer? but I don't really understand what Volo says....

[Mithalwen]

I mean a possible role of False seer not necessarily here and now...

[Volo]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Apologies if I am misunderstanding you, Volo, but you appear to be making no sense. Since when can a Seer's dreams be wrong?

WW XXXII

Originally Posted by SPM

As for your claimed role, I thought that you were joking, but then your edit would suggest that you are serious. But, if you are unkillable and unlynchable, what possible downside might there be to you revealing your role anyway? Unless, you are either on the side of the Wolves or on neither the side of the Wolves nor the villagers, and merely out for yourself.

If I'm "lynched" then my role is revealed anyway, so no point wasting a lynch on me. So I am on the Innocent side. Though if you really don't trust me, you might as well see for yourself by voting me.

I'm just feeling like being a known Innocent wouldn't be too bad. Not too optimistic after being lynched on Day1 for so many times, only once guilty. (But I'm not emphasising this.)

EDIT: Xd with everything since Legate.

I'll explain:

My role is called the Reincarnation of Tolkien. And because Tolkien is immortal, I can't be killed. I am on the side of the Innocents. My goal is to lynch the Wolves. If I am to be lynched or killed at Night, my role will be revealed, but I won't die.


Still half an hour. I'm going to find myself a new vote target. I was very very frustrated with Ang, but logic tells me that he's innocent, as I stated before.

[Brinniel]

Volo, I'm really confused about this role of yours.

If you can't be lynched or killed and you are on the side of us Innocents, then why won't you reveal it to us?

It doesn't make sense to me. What harm could possibly be done if you do indeed reveal your role?

[Brinniel]

Volo's vote for Ang is now making me very uneasy. Not only was this a spite vote, but he jumped the bandwagon perhaps to make this vote seem a bit safer. Even worse, is what he says here:

Originally Posted by Volo

I'm sure thing going to vote you now. Though you're probably innocent.

Why would you vote for someone when you think they're probably innocent? Well, I guess you explain it here:

Originally Posted by Volo

Your accusation came so out of nowhere.

Okay...but not good enough to convince me.

Suddenly, Volo has been moved to the top of my suspect list.

Legate's last post is an improvement from before. Still, I feel a bit uneasy about him. Again, another suspector of Ang:

Originally Posted by Legate

From the beginning, I didn't like his style, it seemed to me as too much in-role and too long for an in-role, nothing-saying post, being vocal enough to be noticed, maybe even get sympathies, but saying nothing in game - not even trying to.

Okay, a good reason....but haven't you been doing a very similar playing style yourself?

Legate is still very suspicious to me, but as the voting already is rather spread out, I would rather not vote for him if it means a throw-away vote. Well, we still have almost an hour left, so we will see...

A lot are voting for Ang. I'm honestly not sure what to think of him at this point. Could be a wolf or could be innocent. But I see no good enough reason to vote for him, so I won't for toDay.

But anyways, my vote probably will be for Volo or Legate if nothing dramatically changes...

EDIT: X-ed with everyone since Rune. Oh my, what has happened here?!