Beardless

[Morwen]

Where does it say that Thranduil is bearded? I've been looking through TH for the reference but so far nothing.

[Anáwiel]

The passes further south are too far away, and were all guarded years ago - they lead straight into the country of the [Beardless Men Mani Aroman >] Horsemen.

As far as I was able to understand it, the quote states that the Rohirrim are beardless. This in my opinion doesn't mean that the men were unable to grow beards but rather that the fashion was to be clean-shaven. At least I interpret it this way.

Concerning the other quote, I think greybeards is just another name for the elders of Gondor and if they are referred to as "greybeards", it is somehow logic to me that they have beards.

The subject is really confusing (and very interesting too). Tolkien often contradicts himself. I think I'll search my e-books again, this time to see how many bearded characters I find, this subject really arose my interest

All quotes are from HoME, I'll check later in which volumes I found them, when I get home

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Anáwiel

The subject is really confusing (and very interesting too). Tolkien often contradicts himself. I think I'll search my e-books again, this time to see how many bearded characters I find, this subject really arose my interest

Tell me about it, I've been trying to find answers to this question for a long time. Let us know the results on your search!

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Anáwiel

Concerning the other quote, I think greybeards is just another name for the elders of Gondor and if they are referred to as "greybeards", it is somehow logic to me that they have beards.

And concerning this, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was stating that the "greybeards" Beregond referred to could be the one's with no rich Numenorean blood- the common folk of Gondor. As far as I know, the only 3 that were known to be actual decendants of Numenor were Denethor, Boromir, and Faramir. Could be wrong.

[MatthewM]

Any more opinions? This is a topic highly up for opinion.

Here's a question- do you think that when Tolkien describes a character as "fair of face", that this refers to beardlessness?

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Anáwiel

All quotes are from HoME, I'll check later in which volumes I found them, when I get home

BTW, any luck finding which volumes they were quoted from?

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Any more opinions? This is a topic highly up for opinion.

Here's a question- do you think that when Tolkien describes a character as "fair of face", that this refers to beardlessness?

I don't know that the phrase is meant to indicate that a character so described is beardless. Cirdan for example is a bearded elf. All elves are supposed to be "fair of face". Ergo, Cirdan is bearded and good looking. Theoden is described as bearded ("His beard was like snow upon his knees" - TT, The King of the Golden Hall ) and Tolkien's description of the dead Theoden is as follows:

The light of the torches shimmered in his white hair like sun in the spray of a fountain, but his face was fair and young, save that a peace lay on it beyond the reach of youth.

RotK, The Houses of Healing

Now unless Theoden had shaved before going into battle, he presumably is still bearded at the time of the above description.

So it is possible to be bearded and fair of face.

On the other hand you have hobbits, who are generally beardless, apart from the Stoors who have facial hair. But hobbits are said to have "good natured" rather than beautiful faces.

[MatthewM]

Nice insight and connection. Thanks.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Where does it say that Thranduil is bearded? I've been looking through TH for the reference but so far nothing.

After my own look-through... I'm embarassingly forced to conclude likewise. I can only conclude that I was thinking of the fact that Thranduil was blond, and was somehow conflating it with the idea that he was bearded--which is a reasonable mix-up, since blondness and beardedness would both contradict normally-held statements about Elves (barring the Vanyar).

However... despite the fact that I can't find any evidence... I STILL want to say that Thranduil was bearded... but I have no evidence and am reasonably forced to conclude that I am mistaken on that point.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

...since blondness and beardedness would both contradict normally-held statements about Elves (barring the Vanyar).

Normally-held, but mistaken. Surely after twenty years people are aware that Appendix F was garbled, and that the 'dark-haired' description there was intended to refer to the Noldor alone, not all the Eldar?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Normally-held, but mistaken. Surely after twenty years people are aware that Appendix F was garbled, and that the 'dark-haired' description there was intended to refer to the Noldor alone, not all the Eldar?

You are correct that it is garbled, and applies specifically to the Noldor, and not all the Eldar, but since Thranduil is a Sinda, and thus of the Teleri, blond is not a hair colour that would be associated with them. Golden hair is associated with the Vanyar, but the Teleri are like the Noldor in being primarily dark-haired, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, in "Quendi and Eldar", HoME XI,

On the origin of this name [Sindar] see Note 11. The Loremasters also supposed that reference was made to the hair of the Sindar. Elwë himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwë (as in the case of Círdan). In general, the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles [Noldor], being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed, they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness.

As a Telerin Elf generally, and as a Sindarin Elf specifically, I stand by saying that a blond-haired Thranduil would have been atypical for his race, though provision is also made earlier in the same text (in discussing the Noldor) to leave a little leeway for intermarriage with the Vanyar in days before or during the Great March.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Quite so- and let's also please allow for natural variation within populations! For example Mahtan and three of his grandsons had red hair, and Nerdanel's was brown- even though 'officially' all non-Finarfinian Noldor had raven locks.

Nor can we forget the nameless Elf of Lorien who helped Haldir with the rope-bridge: whether Noldo, Sinda, or Nando he's not 'supposed' to have golden hair: but he does.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Indeed, they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness.

On wonders- how did one tell Sindar from Beleriand-born Noldor?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

As a Telerin Elf generally, and as a Sindarin Elf specifically, I stand by saying that a blond-haired Thranduil would have been atypical for his race, though provision is also made earlier in the same text (in discussing the Noldor) to leave a little leeway for intermarriage with the Vanyar in days before or during the Great March.

Yes, but Thranduil (or simply 'the Elvenking') first came into being in TH, which was not directly linked to the Legendarium at all originally, so Tolkien would not have actually cared about 'consistency' or lack of same. The Elves of TH could all have had blonde hair, pink eyes & carried teddy bears (Rateliff points put that the prominence of bears in Tolkiens children's stories (TH, Father Christmas Letters & Mr Bliss) comes down to the fact that his audience (Christopher, Michael, John & Priscilla) all had beloved teddy bears (Priscilla at one time owning over sixty of them ).

Another example of the arguments one can get into by treating TH as part of the Legendarium proper......

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

On wonders- how did one tell Sindar from Beleriand-born Noldor?

I suppose you couldn't tell just by looking and that whether a particular dark haired elf is a Sinda or Noldo is something that can only be determined through conversation/interaction.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli
Quite so- and let's also please allow for natural variation within populations! For example Mahtan and three of his grandsons had red hair, and Nerdanel's was brown- even though 'officially' all non-Finarfinian Noldor had raven locks.

This is, in part, why I don't think that Thranduil's golden hair is a huge issue. In The Hobbit, IIRC, only Thranduil is described as golden haired. I don't recall the hair colour of the other Wood Elves being mentioned. Golden hair as a trait therefore may be personal to him, and may possibly be shared by his close relatives.

Or (speculating) it may be that Thranduil has a Vanya ancestor in his family tree.

In any event I don't think that one Sinda being described in TH as golden haired is enough to cast doubt on/cause significant conflict with anything said elsewhere on the hair colour of the Sindar.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Normally-held, but mistaken. Surely after twenty years people are aware that Appendix F was garbled, and that the 'dark-haired' description there was intended to refer to the Noldor alone, not all the Eldar?

Christopher Tolkien objects to the implication concerning the Vanyar, but he also notes...

'But my father carefully remodeled the passage in order to apply it to the Eldar as a whole, and it does seem 'extraordinary' that he should have failed to observe this point.' Christopher Tolkien The Appendix on Languages HME XII

I agree it does seem extraordinary and so I cannot agree with characterizing a Tolkien-published description in a prime source such as The Lord of the Rings as a garbled mistake because a draft reads differently.

In any case I see no great reason to give the 'Vanyarin concern' textual parity here: published text concerning the Eldar outweighs unpublished text concerning the Vanyar in my opinion (and certainly outweighs draft text).