Worst Thing to Fight in but best to discuss (from a distance) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boo Radley · 05-25-2007, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iarwain Ben-adar

Miliatry Tactics and Strategies In Middle-earth

...something called an Overwhelming Force tactic, which is where the besiegers attack with a greater force than the defenders...

That's just sound tactics. If you're an attacking force, going up against a defender who's entrenched or behind cover of some sort, you had BETTER have a larger force.

narfforc · 05-25-2007, 01:40 PM

Sorry Boo I have to disagree, one plane with a New Power Tactic destroyed the city of Hiroshima, therefore saving the lives of countless allied servicemen who would have died using the Overwhelming Force Tactic.

Boo Radley · 05-25-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

Sorry Boo I have to disagree, one plane with a New Power Tactic destroyed the city of Hiroshima, therefore saving the lives of countless allied servicemen who would have died using the Overwhelming Force Tactic.

I thought we were talking about standard ground pounder warfare.
I could also say that in the case of Hiroshima, the attackers felt they HAD an Overwhelming Force Tactic with their bomb.
And you notice how I did not say "Besiegers" like I did in my first post, because dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was not a typical seige tactic.

Iarwain Ben-adar · 05-25-2007, 03:29 PM

I read that someone posted Morgoths main weapon was fear and surprise attacks: this is sort of true. Most of the Battles that his armies fought used the overwhelming force tactic. Some of his battles were fought with the introduction of the new weapon, or th new weapon tactic (which someone has already mentioned). Two distinct examples of ths were when Glaurung first came out of angband (before he was fully grown and his armour was fully hardened), and in the war of wrath, wher hte host of the Valar destoryed almost all of his forces, and when defeat was iminent, then he used the New weapon Tactic by sending out the fire drakes, the greatest of which was Ancalagon the black.
Also, his main weapon, as has also been mentioned is fear and doubt. He instills fear by spreading lies and getting rid of peoples hope, and without hope (I quote from the story of Pandora's box in Greek mythology

there would be no point in living until tomorrow unless there is hope. He also instills doubt that his opposing armies can win. He sends a Massive army, and the sheer numbers of his armies overwhelm anybody mentally, even if they are the better fighters and would normally win. This does not usually happen, though, because all of the peoples have such a hate for Morgoth that they will do anything to stop his reign as Dark Lord. Ah, well. Just a few thoughts. Just wanted to sy thanks for al who have posted in this thread so far, and it will be a pleasure reading your replies in the future.

The Sixth Wizard · 05-25-2007, 03:55 PM

Morgoth does not necessarily need overwhelming numbers to crush an opposing force. When Glaurung and the Orcs campaigned against Nargothrond, they would most certainly not have won, or at least, not been able to push so far into enemy territory, if they didn't have the Secret Weapon, namely the dragon...

I don't think in Tolkien's world the numbers rule is entirely set in stone... f.ex when the Noldor were swiftly victorious over the orcs in the Second Battle, and they were outnumbered and quite possibly out-weaponed too, Feanor tells them to "Journey light, but bring with you your swords", so the Noldor may have had little armour too.

The Might · 05-26-2007, 08:36 AM

A very good example of military tactics is Isildur's guard fighting against the Orcs from Mirkwood, where 2 Numenorean formations are presented. I don't have the time to post all the details now, but I'll do that soon.

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-27-2007, 08:13 AM

Overwhelming Numbers is most often relied upon by commanders, like Morgoth, who know that their manpower is inferior on an individual basis. Face it: Angband's legions on an orc-for-orc basis perform about as well as Imperial Stormtroopers recruited from France.

Andsigil · 07-01-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

That's just sound tactics. If you're an attacking force, going up against a defender who's entrenched or behind cover of some sort, you had BETTER have a larger force.

The accepted military standard for attacking enemies in fixed positions or in urban environments is 3 to 1.

05-25-2007, 01:40 PM	#2
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Sorry Boo I have to disagree, one plane with a New Power Tactic destroyed the city of Hiroshima, therefore saving the lives of countless allied servicemen who would have died using the Overwhelming Force Tactic. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

05-25-2007, 03:29 PM	#4
Iarwain Ben-adar Newly Deceased Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10	I read that someone posted Morgoths main weapon was fear and surprise attacks: this is sort of true. Most of the Battles that his armies fought used the overwhelming force tactic. Some of his battles were fought with the introduction of the new weapon, or th new weapon tactic (which someone has already mentioned). Two distinct examples of ths were when Glaurung first came out of angband (before he was fully grown and his armour was fully hardened), and in the war of wrath, wher hte host of the Valar destoryed almost all of his forces, and when defeat was iminent, then he used the New weapon Tactic by sending out the fire drakes, the greatest of which was Ancalagon the black. Also, his main weapon, as has also been mentioned is fear and doubt. He instills fear by spreading lies and getting rid of peoples hope, and without hope (I quote from the story of Pandora's box in Greek mythology there would be no point in living until tomorrow unless there is hope. He also instills doubt that his opposing armies can win. He sends a Massive army, and the sheer numbers of his armies overwhelm anybody mentally, even if they are the better fighters and would normally win. This does not usually happen, though, because all of the peoples have such a hate for Morgoth that they will do anything to stop his reign as Dark Lord. Ah, well. Just a few thoughts. Just wanted to sy thanks for al who have posted in this thread so far, and it will be a pleasure reading your replies in the future. __________________ "The wise speak only of what they know" -John Ronald Reul Tolkien

05-26-2007, 08:36 AM	#6
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	A very good example of military tactics is Isildur's guard fighting against the Orcs from Mirkwood, where 2 Numenorean formations are presented. I don't have the time to post all the details now, but I'll do that soon. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

05-25-2007, 03:55 PM	#5
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	Morgoth does not necessarily need overwhelming numbers to crush an opposing force. When Glaurung and the Orcs campaigned against Nargothrond, they would most certainly not have won, or at least, not been able to push so far into enemy territory, if they didn't have the Secret Weapon, namely the dragon... I don't think in Tolkien's world the numbers rule is entirely set in stone... f.ex when the Noldor were swiftly victorious over the orcs in the Second Battle, and they were outnumbered and quite possibly out-weaponed too, Feanor tells them to "Journey light, but bring with you your swords", so the Noldor may have had little armour too.

05-27-2007, 08:13 AM	#7
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Overwhelming Numbers is most often relied upon by commanders, like Morgoth, who know that their manpower is inferior on an individual basis. Face it: Angband's legions on an orc-for-orc basis perform about as well as Imperial Stormtroopers recruited from France.