THIS exists in M-E?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gentlemen (especially SoN), this was exactly what I didn't want to see in this topic. Everyone can just sweep interesting topic off of the table like this. But I am placing serious statement in front of you, evidence from the translation of the Red Book of Westmarch, and you cannot deny the train is mentioned there. So I'm expecting topic-advancing entries further.

However, I have to say I am very grateful of davem's find of the quote from the Hobbit, since it really nicely contributes to the discussion. The discovery of the entry implies that not just Frodo, but even Bilbo - the author of the Hobbit's tale - knew the train. This means already Bilbo was writing his book with knowledge of this, which slightly undermines hypothesis #3.

Another valuable bit of information is that we learn the train was actually riding through some tunnel. So, Bilbo must have had experience with - or knowledge about - a train riding through a tunnel. Wherever the railway in Middle-Earth was situated, it must have been probably in a place where high hills or mountains were present as a terrain feature. I would dare to say that this indeed speaks much for the theory #2, also because as far as we know Dwarves were the ones to delve tunnels (the train couldn't just go through some sort of natural cave). The only problem would be, how the hobbits learned about it?

[Boromir88]

Gentlemen (especially SoN), this was exactly what I didn't want to see in this topic. Everyone can just sweep interesting topic off of the table like this.~Legate

I'm going to agree with SoN on this one. I wouldn't call it 'sweeping an interesting topic' under the table, I would say in this particular instance with the 'express train' you are looking too far into the quote and overthinking it. (Just my opinion though ).

For whatever reason it was technological advancement in Middle-earth is pretty much stagnant compared to our own technological advancements. Centuries and whole millenias pass by in Tolkien's story, yet there is very little advancement in technology. For instance, chainmail never progressed to plate mail (all that we see is Imrahil has 'metal vambrances'). There are no crossbows...etc. Besides the appearance of gunpowder (in Gandalf's fireworks and Saruman's 'bombs') advancement in technology (in Middle-earth) is virtually stagnant.

Tolkien was very specific about what he wanted in his story...he endlessly criticized Zimmerman in Letter 210 about adding things in his story that did not belong (tomatoes in the Shire, glass windows...and so on), and for whatever reason kept advancement in technology to pretty much nil.

So, as far as an express train is concerned, I agree with davem and SoN, and the idea that there was an express train somewhere in Middle-earth is just a 'bridge too far' and you're looking too far into things. As the quotes are not literal but figuritive to set up imagery. Just as there are times (in The Lord of the Rings and his other stories) when Tolkien is having his characters 'speak' to us, there are times when the author is speaking to us. If Frodo (or Bilbo) said such and such was like an 'express train' than I can see there being some argument, but the bottom line is both quotes appear in the narration of the author, not the characters.

With that being said, that doesn't mean this discussion has to end, because there are things that exist in Middle-earth that appear in two very different places at different times in our world. For some examples, how about clocks in Middle-earth? Or tea-time? (and doing a search you can find great threads on both) For those are both quite odd and out of place. Middle-earth was not set at one specific period of time according to our own 'real history.' It is a mesh, a mixing pot, of numerous items, things, cultural beliefs...etc which appear at varying times in our history. And Tolkien was quite specific about what belonged in Middle-earth, and what didn't, and he virtually kept advancement in Middle-earth stagnant.

I just think this example of the express train is being read into a bit too much. That doesn't mean this can't be (and isn't already) an interesting thread.

[The Saucepan Man]

If one were to seek to explain the train references in a manner consistent with the 'Translator's Conceit', then one might speculate that this was a phrase inserted by the 'translator' of the Red Book of Westmarch in place of a phrase which would have no meaning to his audience, or alternatively that it was an example of 'translator's' licence.

I am not sure that this fully explains all the anachronistic references, however, particularly those included in The Hobbit and the early chapters of LotR set in The Shire. The Shire is portrayed in a manner redolent of English Edwardian society and is in many ways at odds with the medieval feel of the remainder of Middle-earth (or at least the Mannish domains). Hence, we have mantle clocks, umbrellas, pocket handkerchiefs, waistcoats and even footballs (the latter three, I suppose, not being entirely out of place in a medieval setting), and probably others that I have overlooked. It might also (and indeed has been) argued that tobacco, potatos and coffee are also misplaced in a Western Middle-earth supposedly modelled on Western Europe (although this could be explained in a number of ways). There is a thread around here devoted to anachronisms, and another devoted to coffee and other New World imports - I will see if I can root them out.

If, on the other hand, there were actually express trains existing within Third Age Middle-earth, I would look either to the Dwarves or the Dark Lord (perhaps developed from the flying mechanical war-engines that Morgoth empoyed in the assault on Gondolin).

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, it seems that the anachronism thread that I had in mind no longer exists. But here are some others that I found which discuss this issue:

Hobbiton Anachronisms, or, Were the Hobbits ahead of their Time?

Modern World references in Middle-Earth

And here's the ever delightful ...

Coffee!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I must concede that the orcs/goblins are a possibility. Here's a passage from The Hobbit that applies to their mechanical skills:

They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble...
It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them...

(Over Hill and Under Hill)

[Boromir88]

Isn't it interesting that we have more difficulty accepting an express train in the context of Middle-earth than talking dragons?!~Esty

Maybe because readers expect to encounter talking dragons, giant spiders, and the 'ancient' unknown creatures in a fantasy story. But not express trains in a world that has yet to develop full plate armor, or firearms, or motor vehicles . But as has been shown there are anachronisms throughout Tolkien's story.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

One thing just for start to prevent some confusion, which, it seems, has risen among some people here. I thought it is not necessary to point it out, but maybe for preventing further confussion it's better. Of course I am aware of the fact Tolkien was the one who inserted the image of the express train there, but as Esty said, he presented LotR as a translation from the original. And this whole thread is, of course, built on this premise. He indeed used the word, with whatever intention, but it surely affects the world of Middle-Earth. Or said another way, you might say this topic assumes that LotR is indeed supposed to be a verified translation of the Red Book of Westmarch, written by honorable Mr.Baggins & co., and thus, if the image of a train is indeed there, it fits with Middle-Earth.

Originally Posted by SpM

If one were to seek to explain the train references in a manner consistent with the 'Translator's Conceit', then one might speculate that this was a phrase inserted by the 'translator' of the Red Book of Westmarch in place of a phrase which would have no meaning to his audience, or alternatively that it was an example of 'translator's' licence.

Good point. It also came to my mind originally, however in that case we would necessarily come up to a question what expression then was supposed to be used in the original. Because this would imply that Tolkien used the expression in exchange for some other expression which was not understandable at all for modern reader - and this, given the way we are presented even things totally alien to us, seems rather strange. On other places in LotR, even things totally alien to us are described just as they are, so why change it here? Or in other words, as Esty said very nicely: Isn't it interesting that we have more difficulty accepting an express train in the context of Middle-earth than talking dragons?!

Anyway, back on the railway, so to say. If we agree with the railway really existing somewhere in Middle-Earth, it really looks like either the Dwarves could have been behind it, or there is, indeed, the idea of it being a "machine of the Enemy". The latter might also explain the problem of the train being such a significant image in the hobbits' mind, and it will probably really mean that the train had became a bogeyman (quite rightfully, in this case) for the hobbits.

Originally Posted by Esty

I must concede that the orcs/goblins are a possibility.

Indeed! However, I doubt it would have been just orcs, because unless an old railway lead in Redhorn Gate when the hobbits passed through it from the Anduin Vales (or unless Golfimbul arrived with a train to face Bullroarer ), I can't imagine where would the hobbits come in contact with it (or with a rumor of it). If the train had indeed been a work of the Enemy, then I suggest looking for its roots in Morgoth's devices (I think not Sauron's, because we have no word of it being used in Mordor, and I believe that if Sauron could, he would surely use such a valuable device). After all, the image of a train could fit quite nicely with the environment of the pits of Angband. Maybe the knowledge of the making of this menace passed away in coming ages.

When we look at it, it is quite logical. Most of the real "inventions" were made by (or with the help of) more powerful beings (Maiar, ev. in this case it could be even Vala). As Boro said here:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Besides the appearance of gunpowder (in Gandalf's fireworks and Saruman's 'bombs') advancement in technology (in Middle-earth) is virtually stagnant.

It is quite interesting, however, that we haven't got a note about train among Saruman's devices. If anyone, I would expect Saruman to make such a thing. I even pondered the thought about the train being introduced to the Hobbits during his rulership of the Shire, but later rejected that idea, because from what davem quoted, already Bilbo knew about the train. It is possible, however, that Saruman had some train in his possession, but a) kept it hidden underground or more likely b) could've had plans for it, but didn't use it because he didn't have use for it yet. One could imagine, then, that if Saruman e.g. conquered Rohan, he would have built a nice long railway through the Horse-land to Edoras. (One can almost imagine an "alternate history" where a few years after the conquest of Rohan by Saruman the Rohirrim rebel bands will attack the trains a la Wild West, maybe even equipped by real pistols stolen from Saruman's supplies. )

[davem]

Ok. One thing that got me thinking is in the first draft of TH, where there is a clear reference to 'policemen on bicycles'. Now, this was removed, while the reference to an 'engine' was not. Why? Surely a reference to a policeman on a bicycle is less anachronistic than a reference to a railway engine.

However.....in the upcoming second volume of The History of the Hobbit we will finally get to read Tolkien's attempted re-write of TH in the style of LotR - will the 'engine' reference be left in?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Ok. One thing that got me thinking is in the first draft of TH, where there is a clear reference to 'policemen on bicycles'. Now, this was removed, while the reference to an 'engine' was not. Why? Surely a reference to a policeman on a bicycle is less anachronistic than a reference to a railway engine.

However.....in the upcoming second volume of The History of the Hobbit we will finally get to read Tolkien's attempted re-write of TH in the style of LotR - will the 'engine' reference be left in?

Only time will tell. However... what you mentioned about the reference is quite important for the "real train" image, since it supports what has been said here earlier. Mystery, mystery...
Also, I would like to point out once more, the original quote about express train does not come from the Hobbit, but from LotR itself - which I find quite important, on that matter.

Oh, and one side note. I hope no one is offended by me bringing this idea up, considering me a heretic spoiling the nice fantasy nature of ME with express trains or something like that. Though the idea itself might seem somewhat strange in ME, personally I find trains quite romantic (unless they are dirty and full of people and sprayed allover with graffiti) and prefer traveling with them above other means of transport in general - and probably also partially because of the fact that you can look at the scenery of the land you are moving through. And for me, having a sightseeing tour through ME on a train would surely be lovely experience, not at all ruining the Prof's world. (though still walking and "testing it on my own feet" will be even better)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What an interesting topic, Legate! You are certainly entitled to take seriously any anachronisms metioned in the books on the basis of Tolkien's own "translator conceit" and Red Book concept. After all, though he made a number of corrections and revisions in later editions, he chose to leave such references in the stories! Isn't it interesting that we have more difficulty accepting an express train in the context of Middle-earth than talking dragons?!

Under this assumption, I am inclined to agree with your idea that such inventions came from the Dwarves. [I have explored that idea with another anachronism, Bilbo's clock, in my fan fiction, but won't interrupt this train of thought with a new one right now. (Pun unintentional but appropriate!)] The underground mining would have been an excellent and fairly secret location, and as you said, the coal as a fuel source was there, as well as metals for tracks.

How did the Hobbits get to know about it? Well, dwarves travelled through the Shire frequently - and Bree, for that matter! - on their way to and from the Blue Mountains, so some Hobbits will have traded with them and perhaps gotten to know them more closely. I would imagine that none of them ever experienced a train personally, but heard about them and spread the word to other Hobbits as a legend. It could well have been that they were the bogeymen for little Hobbit children, as you said!

I think that the cons are too strong to have allowed for a train in the Shire, and I doubt that there would have been any in enemy lands, as the Fellowship travels through those countries, with their route being documented quite extensively. But who knows what tunnels could have been hidden in Moria and other Dwarven fasts?!