Beardless

[MatthewM]

Thanks. What is Vinyar Tengwar? Elvish speech? Is there a section for this in UT or HoMe?

[Galin]

Vinyar Tengwar is a not-for-profit refereed journal of the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship.

More details can be found on the web at The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship (from where I lifted this description actually) which is an international organization devoted to the scholarly study of Tolkien's languages.

[davem]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Thanks. What is Vinyar Tengwar? Elvish speech? Is there a section for this in UT or HoMe?

VT publish a lot of Tolkien's still unpublished writings - mainly the linguistic stuff, though some stuff of more general interest finds its way in there occasionally - as far as I'm aware Osanwe Kenta hasn't appeared anywhere else...

[MatthewM]

On the subject of hair color-

Do you think that when Tolkien described a character with dark hair that it was always raven? What about dark brown? Faramir's hair is described as raven when it mixes with Eowyn's in the wind, however black hair is seen in our modern world predominately in the Asian culture, although it is possible in a European background I'm sure. What color do you think "dark hair" meant? I like to think he meant dark brown, as well as raven.

[Arathul]

Pardon for slight off topic

now that you mention Cirdan and his beard, he 's an elf right? and they were gifted with the gift of immortality and never grow old. then why did Cirdan looks like an old man. just look at Galadriel, she's at least as old as Cirdan and yet they say she's very beautiful. remember the first movie, at the beginning when they mention "three rings were given to the elf"? there's 3 elf there, Galadriel (Cate Blanchet), and there's also 2 other elves. i assumed the dark haired one is Gil-Galad and the White haired old loking one is Cirdan. even in movie depictionas he look quite old.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Arathul

Pardon for slight off topic

now that you mention Cirdan and his beard, he 's an elf right? and they were gifted with the gift of immortality and never grow old. then why did Cirdan looks like an old man. just look at Galadriel, she's at least as old as Cirdan and yet they say she's very beautiful. remember the first movie, at the beginning when they mention "three rings were given to the elf"? there's 3 elf there, Galadriel (Cate Blanchet), and there's also 2 other elves. i assumed the dark haired one is Gil-Galad and the White haired old loking one is Cirdan. even in movie depictionas he look quite old.

Well....

Actually, you have a good point... but I must quibble about the relative ages of Círdan and Galadriel.

Círdan is quite a bit older than Galadriel. From texts about him in the Silmarillion writings, we can see that he was clearly born either before or on the Great March, since he was an adult at the time that Elwë (Thingol) was lost in Nan Elmoth, and I would lean towards an earlier date for his birth rather than a later one, since he was clearly a person of some stature among the Teleri, as evidenced by his lordship from the beginning of the Falathrim, and since the Sindar in general were widely composed of those akin to Thingol, it cannot have been on the basis of his kinship to Thingol alone.

Círdan, then is probably about the same age then as Thingol, or his good friend, Finwë-- Galadriel's grandfather. We are also told, in Unfinished Tales that it was not long before the brightness of Valinor was dimmed (with the release of Melkor) that she grew to adulthood. And since Melkor was imprisoned for three Ages, and since most of those three Ages passed after the arrival of the Vanyar and Noldor in Valinor, it seems likely to assume that Círdan was something like two and a half Ages older than Galadriel. It also seems probable that Galadriel was the youngest of Finwë's grandchildren, or one of the youngest, seeing as she was the youngest child of his youngest son.

(It should also be noted that these "Ages" before the demise of the Two Trees were of a fixed, numerical length--one that I can't recall at the moment, but one which I believe was rather shorter than the 2nd and 3rd Ages turned out to be... Still, although Galadriel and Círdan are both quite old, the Shipwright has a decided edge.)

[Morthoron]

Formendacil is correct, Cirdan is literally ages older than Galadriel; in fact, I think it's safe to say Cirdan was the oldest Elf existing outside of Aman (at least of any named Elf in the story). To me, it seems Tolkien used a long beard as an outward symbol of Cirdan's immense longevity.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

On the subject of hair color-

Do you think that when Tolkien described a character with dark hair that it was always raven? What about dark brown? Faramir's hair is described as raven when it mixes with Eowyn's in the wind, however black hair is seen in our modern world predominately in the Asian culture, although it is possible in a European background I'm sure. What color do you think "dark hair" meant? I like to think he meant dark brown, as well as raven.

Black or dark hair was the predominant colouring allegedly, together with blue eyes, for the Britons. So the classic dark haired Elf/Numenorean is like one of the original Britons or Celts. The Fair colouring was primarily associated with Anglo-Saxons, whereas Ginger was mostly associated with the Scandinavians (which is maybe why so many Scots and Irish have this colouring).

Of course, these are not hard and fast rules as people had been coming in and out of the islands for millennia, but it would be nice if there was some kind of cultural metaphor in the mingling of Faramir & Eowyn's hair - as there seems to be!

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Black or dark hair was the predominant colouring allegedly, together with blue eyes, for the Britons. So the classic dark haired Elf/Numenorean is like one of the original Britons or Celts. The Fair colouring was primarily associated with Anglo-Saxons, whereas Ginger was mostly associated with the Scandinavians (which is maybe why so many Scots and Irish have this colouring).

Of course, these are not hard and fast rules as people had been coming in and out of the islands for millennia, but it would be nice if there was some kind of cultural metaphor in the mingling of Faramir & Eowyn's hair - as there seems to be!

Indeed- thanks for that, I wasn't aware that the hair colour of the Britons and Celts was predominately black/dark. Interesting. I'm sure "dark" would constiute as a dark brown, as well. Good catch on the mingling hair too, I would not doubt it. Thanks again!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

On the subject of hair color-

Do you think that when Tolkien described a character with dark hair that it was always raven? What about dark brown? Faramir's hair is described as raven when it mixes with Eowyn's in the wind, however black hair is seen in our modern world predominately in the Asian culture, although it is possible in a European background I'm sure. What color do you think "dark hair" meant? I like to think he meant dark brown, as well as raven.

I suppose technically it is very dark brown but I have always thought that Daniel Day Lewis typified the colouring Tolkien means for the noldor and numenoreans... very dark hair, pale skin and light eyes.. not common of course because the gene for light hair isn't dominant but a definite celtic "type".

[Galin]

Do you think that when Tolkien described a character with dark hair that it was always raven? What about dark brown? (...) What color do you think "dark hair" meant? I like to think he meant dark brown, as well as raven.

Tolkien did some more thinking about hair colour after The Lord of the Rings was published of course, however, once again JRRT was not against changing his mind! In an Elven context at least, there's a stem appearing in Words, Phrases and Passages (from which work the rest of the following citations are taken as well, before we get to the Shibboleth of Feanor):

ÑGOL 'dark-hued, dark-brown'

And within a deleted entry for stem GWAY it was noted: 'morna black of hair; hróva, dark, dark brown'. The entry included a rejected passage concerning the Mindi (or first clan) noting that: '... The Noldor were generally hróva or morna. But fair-hair also occured among them especially by intermarriage.' Again the entire entry (which I did not give here) for GWAY was deleted in any case.

Also, outside of the section on roots, one can see the significance of the root ÑGOL above, as Tolkien had encountered the word used for one of his famed clans, and seemed ready (at this point anyway) to make a notable revision:

Q. noldo 'Delete all references of Ñoldo to 'wisdom, lore!'

Within which it's noted: 'The predominant colour of Ñoldorin hair was very dark brown (no Elf had absolute black hair: morna), but by intermarriage fair-hair occured among them: as e.g. in Finrod & Galadriel (after Indis).'


In any event we know that ñgol- was revised back again, as shown in the later text The Shibboleth of Feanor for example, referring once more to a type of wisdom (not as a root connected to Noldorin hair colour). And in the same text Finwe is described with 'black' hair (note 19): 'He had black hair, but brilliant grey-blue eyes.'

There is also note 61 to The Shibboleth of Feanor, concerning Nerdanel's father: 'His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Noldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it.'


So one can make of this much as he or she will, but all in all I tend to think that Tolkien's 'dark' could generally include brown and black.