Farmer Giles of Ham - obviously Catholic?

[Mithalwen]

Further to previous replies, I would mention that Oxford still identifies its terms by reference to the Church calendar - Michaelmas, Hilary and Trinity.

Also many of the things Esty refers to are not exclusively Catholic.

While protestants have a different perspective on sainthood, saints are not ignored. Here are some of the Saints days marked by the established church
and most Anglican Parish churches will have a patronal festival to mark the day of the saint to which they are dedicated. I have celebrated Candlemas a few times but admittedly in churches that belong liturgically in the "I can't belive it's not Catholicism" wing of the CofE.

Parson in modern England would not be used to refer to a Catholic priest. In this historical pre-reformation context it means that he was the incumbent of a church independent of the the control of a monastery or similar (unlike a vicar).

I just think he is using a historical context rather than making a religious point. After all church going was only at the beginning of it's decline when Farmer Giles was first published.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks to all of you who have revived this thread with your comments! I agree with the general consensus that the "Catholic" references are more cultural than religious; still, it is an interesting look at a time long gone by, isn't it? And I'm still pondering the difference between the "religious" saint's tale, in which the dragon gets killed, and Tolkien's parody, in which the dragon stays alive and becomes a helpful ally of the hero!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Thanks to all of you who have revived this thread with your comments! I agree with the general consensus that the "Catholic" references are more cultural than religious; still, it is an interesting look at a time long gone by, isn't it? And I'm still pondering the difference between the "religious" saint's tale, in which the dragon gets killed, and Tolkien's parody, in which the dragon stays alive and becomes a helpful ally of the hero!

I think that has a lot to do with different conceptions of a "dragon". The dragon St. George reputedly killed is associated with the devil (ie. the serpent). The tale is expressly a story of the triumph of sanctity over evil. End of story.

[EDIT]It just occurred to me that one could also associate the image of the "religious dragon" with various scriptural writings. I believe the Book of Daniel and Revelation have "dragons" of sorts in them--though I'm not sure that the term is actually used in both cases. These "dragons" however, are very different in conception and description from the classic western European conception exemplified in Smaug and others, other than being the biggest and most fearsome of beasts.[/edit]

However, as we see with Smaug and Glaurung, Tolkien was fascinated by DRAGONS. And with those examples, certainly, we are seeing dragons in the normal pattern of dragons. But with Chyrsophylax especially, and with Smaug nextmost, I think we're seeing Tolkien's childlike fascination with "green, great dragons". And, personally, I think a lot of us find dragons fascinating for much the same reasons; these big, scaly, independent, fire-breathing, enigmatic, vainglorious flying dinosaurs are simply cool.

And since I would say that Farmer Giles is an explicitly more lighthearted adventure, told for the fun and not for any epic purpose, it seems right that Tolkien allows the coolest character in the book to survive.

[Lalwendë]

There are several St George 'histories', and only one of them involves dragon slaying (the others are the usual business about martyrs and whatnot). 'Ours' comes from Turkey and the Middle-east in general, brought back by romantic minded crusaders and was probably an allegory about ending alleged pagan human sacrifices.

It must have been a cracking story as England already had a patron saint, Saint Edmund. Either that or the crusading Norman aristos were keen on finding a belting story that could trample the old Saxon saint's story into the ground - and it does for my taste as Edmund was venerated for losing a battle against Ivar the Boneless, and being of a Viking frame of mind, what's so great about that? Plus the Angles were no Angels. Bah.

Interestingly at the end of the 1800s Pope Leo XIII 'decided' that the English were not to have St George as their patron saint any longer and would have Peter instead. Pht. Pope John Paul II 'allowed' us to have St George back though.

St George is a cool saint to have - he may well slay the dragon, but at least there's one in his story. If Tolkien was playing around with that maybe he felt the same way a lot of us do and wanted the cool dragon to live instead.

[Rumil]

Hi All,

I've generally sort of assumed that Farmer Giles of Ham was set sometime in the dark ages in between the Romans and the 'heptarchy' of the Anglo Saxons. The story mentions the large number of petty kings, which would fit in nicely around this time. This also fits in well with the dates for St. Hilary, can we be any more specific with the dates of the other saints?

Perhaps the story fits into the 'Arthurian' age when Britain was ruled by the Britons not the English. If so the religion could perhaps be the Pelagian version of the Catholic sect or even the Celtic church (different haircuts on monks and date of easter).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In their Introduction to the edited edition of Farmer Giles, Hammond and Scull specify the "historical" time as given by Tolkien in his Forward:

...between the end of the third century (the time of King Coel) and the early sixth century (the rise of the Seven Kingdoms of the English)...

So it is definitely pre-Arthurian. However, that is not important; they go on to say:

Its 'medieval' setting is merely an appropriate background for a tale of dragons and knights, against which Tolkien places anachronisms for humorous effect...