THIS exists in M-E?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Ok. One thing that got me thinking is in the first draft of TH, where there is a clear reference to 'policemen on bicycles'. Now, this was removed, while the reference to an 'engine' was not. Why? Surely a reference to a policeman on a bicycle is less anachronistic than a reference to a railway engine.

However.....in the upcoming second volume of The History of the Hobbit we will finally get to read Tolkien's attempted re-write of TH in the style of LotR - will the 'engine' reference be left in?

Only time will tell. However... what you mentioned about the reference is quite important for the "real train" image, since it supports what has been said here earlier. Mystery, mystery...
Also, I would like to point out once more, the original quote about express train does not come from the Hobbit, but from LotR itself - which I find quite important, on that matter.

Oh, and one side note. I hope no one is offended by me bringing this idea up, considering me a heretic spoiling the nice fantasy nature of ME with express trains or something like that. Though the idea itself might seem somewhat strange in ME, personally I find trains quite romantic (unless they are dirty and full of people and sprayed allover with graffiti) and prefer traveling with them above other means of transport in general - and probably also partially because of the fact that you can look at the scenery of the land you are moving through. And for me, having a sightseeing tour through ME on a train would surely be lovely experience, not at all ruining the Prof's world. (though still walking and "testing it on my own feet" will be even better)

[davem]

Of course, 'express train' need not imply a machine like a steam engine. In fact even an 'engine' need not necessarily refer to a mechanical device

train (n.)
c.1330, "a drawing out, delay," later "trailing part of a skirt" (c.1440), also "retinue, procession" (c.1440), from O.Fr. train (fem. traine), from trainer "to pull, draw," from V.L. *traginare, extended from *tragere "to pull," back formation from tractus, pp. of L. trahere "to pull, draw" (see tract (1)). Train of thought first attested 1651. The railroad sense is recorded from 1824, from notion of a "train" of carriages. British train-spotting "hobby of observing trains and recording locomotive numbers" is recorded from 1958.

engine
c.1300, from O.Fr. engin "skill, cleverness," also "war machine," from L. ingenium "inborn qualities, talent," from in- "in" + gen-, root of gignere "to beget, produce." At first meaning a trick or device, or any machine (especially military); sense of one that converts energy to mechanical power is 18c., especially of steam engines. Engineer "locomotive driver" is first attested 1839, Amer.Eng.

So a 'train' could be pulled by animals - a 'wagon train' for example, & an 'engine' is simply a 'clever device'.

In other words, one could, in fact, have both 'trains' & 'engines' in M-e without them needing to be even steam powered.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Linguistic possibilities, davem, true - but how would those usages of the words account for the "express"?!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not to mention that one would also need to identify what kind of a 'clever device' comes out of a tunnel, whistling...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Linguistic possibilities, davem, true - but how would those usages of the words account for the "express"?!

Well, an 'express train' is simply a train with a limited number of stops, so that doesn't present a problem. It could refer to a mule train, a wagon train - ie, a 'caravan' which has a single or perhaps a couple of stops. One assumes therefore that most trading in M-e would be done by 'train', & given the widely spaced communities these 'trains'/caravans would be 'express'.

Originally Posted by Legate

Not to mention that one would also need to identify what kind of a 'clever device' comes out of a tunnel, whistling...

A rabbit with a kettle on its head...

[The Sixth Wizard]

But then those things are relatively slow. Why would the hobbits relate them to a massive whizzing firework?

~Presenting Problems, Not Answers

[Feanorsdoom]

Interesting subject, and a passage I'm sure I passed over without much thought in my first readings. I see the "express train" as translatory license spoken of above. Unfortunately, in the Shire, there were presumably no regularly scheduled methods of transportation to equate it with beyond perhaps some form of postal communication with towns at its perimeter. Minus any institutional conveyance, I think we are left with a hobbit's view of fast-living outsiders, like the men who frequent Bree. Imagine that there may be regular equine postal stops at Bree for a general (human) northern M-e route, and we have something a hobbit might think of as an "express train".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

Unfortunately, in the Shire, there were presumably no regularly scheduled methods of transportation to equate it with beyond perhaps some form of postal communication with towns at its perimeter. Minus any institutional conveyance, I think we are left with a hobbit's view of fast-living outsiders, like the men who frequent Bree. Imagine that there may be regular equine postal stops at Bree for a general (human) northern M-e route, and we have something a hobbit might think of as an "express train".

But as Six pointed out quite well I think, why would they use the expression for a mule-drawn cart in connection with a huge loud flying firework dragon?