THIS exists in M-E?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Linguistic possibilities, davem, true - but how would those usages of the words account for the "express"?!

Well, an 'express train' is simply a train with a limited number of stops, so that doesn't present a problem. It could refer to a mule train, a wagon train - ie, a 'caravan' which has a single or perhaps a couple of stops. One assumes therefore that most trading in M-e would be done by 'train', & given the widely spaced communities these 'trains'/caravans would be 'express'.

Originally Posted by Legate

Not to mention that one would also need to identify what kind of a 'clever device' comes out of a tunnel, whistling...

A rabbit with a kettle on its head...

[The Sixth Wizard]

But then those things are relatively slow. Why would the hobbits relate them to a massive whizzing firework?

~Presenting Problems, Not Answers

[Feanorsdoom]

Interesting subject, and a passage I'm sure I passed over without much thought in my first readings. I see the "express train" as translatory license spoken of above. Unfortunately, in the Shire, there were presumably no regularly scheduled methods of transportation to equate it with beyond perhaps some form of postal communication with towns at its perimeter. Minus any institutional conveyance, I think we are left with a hobbit's view of fast-living outsiders, like the men who frequent Bree. Imagine that there may be regular equine postal stops at Bree for a general (human) northern M-e route, and we have something a hobbit might think of as an "express train".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

Unfortunately, in the Shire, there were presumably no regularly scheduled methods of transportation to equate it with beyond perhaps some form of postal communication with towns at its perimeter. Minus any institutional conveyance, I think we are left with a hobbit's view of fast-living outsiders, like the men who frequent Bree. Imagine that there may be regular equine postal stops at Bree for a general (human) northern M-e route, and we have something a hobbit might think of as an "express train".

But as Six pointed out quite well I think, why would they use the expression for a mule-drawn cart in connection with a huge loud flying firework dragon?

[Volo]

"The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."

"Poor Bilbo couldn't bear it any longer. At may never return he began to feel a shriek coming up inside, and very soon it burst out like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel."

So, what do we have here:

1. "express train like a dragon passing" (with bursts)
It's hard to make a slow caravan of wagons from this. Deffinitely refers to something fast. Though we shouldn't forget the "express"-part which means that the train is for passangers. So it can't be a mine cart either. And the "dragon"-part, doesn't it form the words "smoke" and "long", "big" and "wormish" in your mind?

2. "whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel" (with bursts)
It is even harder to imagine this refering to anything but a steam engine of a train.

First I thought that this could refer to some invention of Saruman, as seen in the film (if I'm not confusing things), or a mine cart. Now it is pretty impossible to connect this with Saruman or mine carts.

Sorry, Legate, I can only think of something like the train in Harry Potter from the phrases above, and I very much doubt that anything like that would exist in M-e. Though this is an interesting subject!

[Lalwendë]

Sorry, I can't get the image of those little ride-on steam trains you get in kids' parks out of my mind. Maybe some eccentric elderly men who liked having an uber train set to play with (under the guise of providing a 'service' to the local recreation department) left behind their model railway and the Hobbits later found it - of course it would be 'just their size'. Meh.

Hmm, thinking about Saruman and how far he and others had come in terms of technology, a steam train would not be entirely out of the question (though I could not place one in The Shire at all). Gandalf had developed some advanced ballistics with his Fireworks, Sauron seemed to be using advanced weaponry systems st the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, including flamethrowers and petrol-based ballistics. Saruman was already on to using gunpowder in weaponry, and Gandalf must have known about its uses too - maybe Boro, our fireworks expert can clarify whether fireworks must use gunpowder to work?

Historically, some developments were rapidly followed by others. Hmmm, my memory of the exact inventors is rusty, but I think it was Newcommen who developed the steam engine and it was a mere handful of years alter that the forst railways were being built. What, exactly, did Saruman have in operation down at Isengard?

There is also the possibility it refers to other kinds of train. That East Road sounds suspiciously well surfaced to me what with all the quick movements along it and the existence of little 'toll houses' when the Hobbits return at the end of RotK. Turnpikes? Maybe!

And of course there is the fact that The Shire seems suspiciously much more advanced than other societies in Middle-earth, what with its umbrellas, clocks and egalitarian system of Government. It's at the very least reflective of a regency village society and has a lot of the Edwardian too. It's certainly not medieval!

[Boromir88]

maybe Boro, our fireworks expert can clarify whether fireworks must use gunpowder to work?~Lal

Fireworks expert hey? Well I'm not a pyrotechnic chemist that creates them, but I can share the basic ingredients needed in fireworks and what creates those dazzling displays.

One of the needs (and probably it is the biggest one) is black powder. Black powder is necessary for two things, first the initial burst of the shell out of the tube and then also to ignite the time-delay fuse in the shell which sends the pellets or stars bursting out creating the colorful display. Basically stick a shell in a coardboard tube, and attach a fuse. In the shell there are seperate chambers, where in one is the black powder, and in another are what is called the 'stars.' And the stars are just little cubes of different chemicals. It's these chemicals that create the various colors...barium, sodium, aluminum...etc, just a wide range of these stars of various chemicals creates the reds, blues, greens...etc.

Because fireworks were first created by the Chinese not for entertainment purposes, but to scare of evil spirits. It's the black powder that creates the loud bang, and if you only use black powder you would only have a yellowish-orangish light. Where when you pack the shell with different chemicals you get different colors and that it is that discovery which led to fireworks being used for entertainment. Because, tt's not the actual explosion that creates the various color, what you're watching is these 'stars' of chemicals burning when they are thrown out of the shell. Then depending upon how you pack these 'stars' of chemicals in the shell determines the shape that is created when the stars are sent flying out of the shell.

There's a bunch of other complicated things that create different effects now adays. For instance, you can put an some sort of oxidizer which slows down the burning of the stars and that creates the drizzling effect, as the stars burn slower. But that's the basic firework in a nut'shell.'

You may be able to use something else to fuel the shell and create the explosion, but the chinese found black powder worked well for what they wanted...a loud bang which would scare away evil spirits. And over time fireworks grew into being used for dazzling entertainment, so we just stuck with black powder to creae the explosion and then packed the shell with various pellets of chemicals and depending upon their placement is what creates all the seperate colors and the shape of the firework. As the black powder is necessary for two things in the firework, to create that initial burst out of the tube, and then to set off the time-delay fuse which spreads the 'stars' out of the shell. When the firework reaches its maximum height, the time-delay fuse sends the stars flying out of shell. Hope you have learned all you need to know for creating your own fireworks now (just kidding by the way I do not advocate that )

As far as Gandalf's fireworks, my guess would be he enhances it's entertainment with his magic. As we are currently struggling with designs like a walmart smiley face. Where Gandalf has a firework that creates a dragon and a large mountain. So, either Gandalf understood even more complex physics than our pyrotechnic chemists have yet to figure out, or Gandalf magically enhances his fireworks for entertainment purposes.