As the Balrog flies - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarwain Ben-adar · 06-02-2007, 05:44 AM

[QUOTE=Farael](he fought him with his sword and then the balrog fell down the precipice and died)[QUOTE]

This is actually untrue. He fought with the Balrog on the Bridge of khazad-Dum, then they fell down. They landed in water, and the Balrog ran up the endless stair to the top of Zirak-Zigil, where they had the final battle, and Gandalf threw down the Balrog, but Gandalf died as well (or at least Gandalf the Grey). He was later reincarnated on Zirak-Zigil as Gandalf the white, and taken to Lorien by Gwaihir to be given new Garments.

Morwen · 06-02-2007, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Farael

At that time, Morgoth was still very much a "spiritual" being, he was not yet confined to his earthly form, therefore I'd speculate that "punches and stabs" wouldn't do much damage to him.

I don't have my books handy, but I believe that Ungoliant fought Morgoth with the darkness she could spew and so I'd speculate that the battle was more of a spiritual struggle than a physical one. Of course, the spiritual struggling might have had physical expressions (such as darkness and light, or perhaps cold and fire) yet this fight might have raged on for a long time on planes other than the physical one until the Balrogs finally came to the rescue.

The way it is described in the Silmarillion I didn't think that Morgoth was putting up much of a fight, either physical or spiritual. Ungoliant had "grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him" and so her "cloud closed about him, and she enmeshed him in a web of clinging thongs to strangle him" (Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor). My impression was that Morgoth, weakened, was overcome and couldn't fight back, only struggle against the darkness that Ungoliant spewed forth and the physical constraints of her webs and that if he had to be rescued, his rescuers needed to show up quickly. At this point he lets out his 'terrible cry' which summons the Balrogs.

Quote:

Originally posted by Farael
So perhaps, at the time of Morgoth's fight with Ungoliant, balrogs were still able to become wholly spiritual and as such they might have been able to travel great distances at amazing speeds.

I agree. When Arien, spirit of fire, undertakes the guidance of the vessel of the Sun it is said that she abandoned her physical form and thereafter was "as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour" (Silmarillion, Of the Sun and Moon). The Balrogs are described as coming to Lammoth "as a tempest of fire" which suggested to me that they had journeyed in spirit form.

Formendacil · 06-02-2007, 11:33 AM

One point about Morgoth and his physical form...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Of the Darkening of Valinor

Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.

Now, I will grant this this does not necessitate that it was right then that Melkor was last about to change his form. It simply means that was the last time that he did so. Though there is no documentary evidence to back it up, I would take the statement that "much power had gone out from Morgoth" as an indication that he was, in fact, unable to change his form again.

The Sixth Wizard · 06-03-2007, 04:37 AM

The Sil says that the "Bridge of Menegroth was but 50 leagues distant from the gate of Angband. This is 277.8 kilometres or about 172.5 miles. I'd say that judging by the map of Beleriand that Lammoth is about the same distance away. According to this essay your height x .415 equals your striding length. Sure, Balrogs are probably different, but maybe that can give us an idea. How tall were Balrogs? Eight, nine feet? More?

If nine feet that means their stride length was 3.735 feet and 1.14 metres. If they stepped once a second (they're kind of hulking) then they would get there in 243,684 seconds or

(drumroll please)

Sixty Seven Hours!

...Okay that was useless.

Elmo · 06-03-2007, 01:27 PM

They have all those mountains to climb aswell...

The Sixth Wizard · 06-04-2007, 01:57 AM

True. But then they could just slide down the other end, couldn't they?

Morsul the Dark · 09-07-2009, 07:38 PM

well think about it, they were summoned by his scream sooo they weren't far away(I don't care what a map says

) Sounds travels at 540feet per second about 170 meters a second(About) so if they instantly heard him then they were about...right there

06-02-2007, 05:44 AM	#1
Iarwain Ben-adar Newly Deceased Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10	[QUOTE=Farael](he fought him with his sword and then the balrog fell down the precipice and died)[QUOTE] This is actually untrue. He fought with the Balrog on the Bridge of khazad-Dum, then they fell down. They landed in water, and the Balrog ran up the endless stair to the top of Zirak-Zigil, where they had the final battle, and Gandalf threw down the Balrog, but Gandalf died as well (or at least Gandalf the Grey). He was later reincarnated on Zirak-Zigil as Gandalf the white, and taken to Lorien by Gwaihir to be given new Garments. __________________ "The wise speak only of what they know" -John Ronald Reul Tolkien

06-03-2007, 04:37 AM	#4
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	Some useless, unhelpful, teenage maths... The Sil says that the "Bridge of Menegroth was but 50 leagues distant from the gate of Angband. This is 277.8 kilometres or about 172.5 miles. I'd say that judging by the map of Beleriand that Lammoth is about the same distance away. According to this essay your height x .415 equals your striding length. Sure, Balrogs are probably different, but maybe that can give us an idea. How tall were Balrogs? Eight, nine feet? More? If nine feet that means their stride length was 3.735 feet and 1.14 metres. If they stepped once a second (they're kind of hulking) then they would get there in 243,684 seconds or (drumroll please) Sixty Seven Hours! ...Okay that was useless.

06-03-2007, 01:27 PM	#5
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	They have all those mountains to climb aswell... __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

09-07-2009, 07:38 PM	#7
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	well think about it, they were summoned by his scream sooo they weren't far away(I don't care what a map says) Sounds travels at 540feet per second about 170 meters a second(About) so if they instantly heard him then they were about...right there __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

06-04-2007, 01:57 AM	#6
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	True. But then they could just slide down the other end, couldn't they?