Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Feanorsdoom]

Davem, you have come closest to the truth in saying that no one could see M-e as JRRT did, and the fact that it was never a finished model to work from cements that; but 'filling in the gaps' or continuing the overall story in some sense are things that are being done, and will continue to be done, despite what you may wish. You say no one can internalize Tolkien's world like he did, and that's true, but it was never complete or adequately idealized in him, either. If you mean to say that no one could be as masterful as him without necessarily wanting to write outside of M-e, presumably for reasons of pride if not that genius can only be a purely individual nature, you may also be right, but I doubt it. Le Mort d'Arthur wasn't the first story about King Arthur, and no doubt won't be the last.

I'm not saying that the Tolkien family should bow to fan pressure and sanction a campaign of novel knockoffs like in the Star Trek universe(s) or AD&D, but fanfic is being written, and will be for the forseeable future. Somewhere in there might be writers of good quality, even great. To say that none can ever match the skills, vision, or dedication of JRRT himself is close to calling Tolkien divinely inspired and his works scripture. Before you key up another "never", I'd like to ask just how far we should go to keep people from publishing a new, non-Tolkien, Middle-earth novel. Should we just sue them for copyright infringement, or should we burn them for blasphemy?

JRRT was not a prophet, an apostle, or a messiah, and The Silmarillion is not the new, improved Bible. There will be authors his equal, and not all will share your idea that Middle-earth is sacrosanct to JRRT alone. Yes, his M-e is lost to us, except for the works he left behind; but if you are saying that no one's vision of M-e could ever be as beautiful, then I think you should question yourself as to how seriously you should be taking this line of thought. This isn't a cult; at least, I hope it's not becoming one.

Love for Tolkien's works can be expressed in many ways. Most of us can only read them, but many can't leave it at that. Surely, the human race isn't so impoverished that it can't come up with someone who both loves Tolkien's works and has the ability to add to them something worthwhile? Shouldn't we at least aknowledge the possibility, or should M-e be protected from outside ideas until it becomes a cult, then a new religion? That way leads to madness.

[davem]

Sorry, but I haven't argued that Tolkien's work should be treated like some kind of religious text. All I've argued from the start is that what we've got is what there is, & if anyone else adds to it what they add will be fake.

What you don't get is that Middle-earth is not a real place, with an objective existence that others can investigate & discover new things about. Middle-earth is what JRR Tolkien wrote. There isn't anymore, & won't be anymore because he's dead. There is lots of fanfic out there (in a mad moment I knocked some off myself & its there over on the Downs fanfic section if you want to read it. I enjoyed writing it, & some who read it said they liked it. But its not, & could never be, part of the Canon - even if it were a thousand times better than it is.

You appear to want other writers to be able to publish their own tales about Middle-earth & have them treated as canon - on equal (or higher) terms than Tolkien's own work. I'm saying this is a fundamental misunderstanding of Tolkien's work & a failure on your part to realise that the man is the work & the work is the man.

Yes, anyone can write stories about Elves & Balrogs which are set in Arda. They may be good stories. They may be entertaining, moving, even profound. What they won't be is part of Tolkien's Legendarium.

Look, let's get down to brass tacks. Which writer(s) are you talking about? This whole 'One day there may come a writer of genius who can take up his pen & tell us great tales of Middle-earth.' stuff is getting us no-where. One day I may be kidnapped by aliens. One day Tolkien may be cloned from DNA left on the stem of his favourite pipe. One day a great many things may happen, but if that's all your argument hangs on I think its a bit pointless to go on with.
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[Estelyn Telcontar]

As a musician, I would like to add a footnote to this discussion that is applicable to writing and other arts as well as to music. Beginning composers usually try out different styles, often copying other composers, as part of the process of developing their own style. That's part of learning the craft, the 90% perspiration that brings the 10% inspiration onto paper and eventually, to the concert halls/exhibitions/printing presses. The better the predecessor, the better one learns the craft, so it's vital to choose the best. From there, upon having internalized the basic techniques, one can move on to stretching them, developing them, filling them with new contents in new styles - and perhaps even destroying them completely to make way for individual creativity.

What better writer could one choose to emulate than Tolkien?! (Granted, there are other excellent choices in other areas of writing out there, but those are not our topic here.) In "Meditations on Middle-Earth" (which sounds like cheesy devotionals, but is a compilation of authors' experiences with Tolkien's influence), a number of authors who have gone on to create their own worlds tell how they started out by emulating Tolkien.

I would in no way advocate selling others' products as canonical Tolkien, but fan fiction and RPGs can not only prepare budding authors for their own careers, the stories can give great pleasure to those who read them - if well-written, of course.

[Lalwendë]

The thing with fan-fic is that there is plenty of great stuff out there, and the Estate allow it to be written and published online or privately, just it must never have Tolkien's identity attached to it. I don't see what's wrong with leaving it at that. Some of the fan fic is so good it garners a sizeable audience of its own - fair enough! The vital thing is that it is kept entirely separate from the canon.

We must remember that Tolkien's stories are very different from stories of Arthur or Robin Hood. Those are ancient stories based on reality, based on history - nobody in particular created them, they were created collectively we might say as they are genuine myths and legends. As such they are nobody's and everybody's creations and we are free to play with them and create profit-making Art based on them.

No matter how hard you screw up your eyes and wish upon the Tooth Fairy, Tolkien's work is not Myth; it is Art, it is Fiction. Yes, it should and must be protected from dilution by other writers as to allow anything else would dilute and ruin Tolkien's immense hard work. As I say, the Estate are kind enough not to prevent fan-fic (some writers do, so think yourself lucky everyone!) in its current form, why can't we leave it be?

[davem]

The other problem with this approach is simply that (as I stated earlier) there is no final, coherent form to the Legendarium. There are conflicting versions of teh tales written over a period of six decades. Which version of the Tale of Gondolin, for instance, do you take as a basis for an 'official' retelling? The 1917 BoLT version (which is the only complete version) or the QS version, or do you take up the 1951 version as published in UT? Or do you just cobble together a version from the bits?

There isn't a coherent Legendarium for someone to take up. 'Middle-earth' is not, as I keep repeating, an objectively existing place, but a series of variant versions of tales composed over a long life by a man. Its not what some people insist on seeing it as. You can't, in all honesty, pretend that its something it isn't. No writer can take up the reigns & write a new story that would be accepted by either the Estate or fans as 'official', because however careful & competent the writer was he or she would inevitably contradict something Tolkien himself wrote, woud have to reject some of Tolkien's ideas - in effect 'finish off' Tolkien's painiting by painting over huge swathes of the original work. You'd lose the original work simply in order to get the canvas covered up.

Writing fanfic is one thing. Writing a new story that would be accepted as canonical is another. The first is open to anyone. The latter is rendered impossible by the very nature of the raw materials Tolkien left.

[Bêthberry]

While davendë , as always, makes a very persuasive argument, I think it might be interesting to step back for a bit and ask why there is this sense that other Middle-earth stories could be written.

Obviously, there are holders of copyright who have sold the right or have hired other writers to pen stories of their universe. Top names here are Gene Roddenberry of Star Trek fame and George Lucas of Star Wars fame. Interestingly, both of these universes became known to fans first visually through the drama of film or television, rather than in written format. Both those media employ stables of writers; screenplays and TV scripts are cobbled out of a group effort. Royalties accrue to the original creator (or his estate, in the case of Roddenberry), but no one would ever say that others cannot participate in the concept. Who can is controlled by the business enterprise.

Now, Tolkien didn't come to us this way initially. He came in book form, and his books are substantively different from the early writings of the Star Trek and Star Wars universes. But two things have happened to Tolkien since his initial publication: Peter Jackson's film and Christopher Tolkien's productions.

The presence of the films, with their legal right to use the name Tolkien, makes it difficult for many people to distinguish between Tolkien and these Hollywood fantasists--rightly or wrongly. People are going to ask, why not with T as with R and L? The fine points of arguments about canon make little sense given that the practice is so widespread. (Note, I'm not agreeing with this; simply pointing out that many people will want to know why this is an apples and oranges argument when what they expect is the ambrosia of mixed fruit.)

The role of Tolkien's literary executor has substantially muddied this situation. What are the specific instructions Tolkien left for CT? True, literary executors do generally have the right to bring to the public eye postumous works of writers. Yet how many literary executors have done what CT has done--pulled together books from separate pieces of writing. The guiding principle here has, I think, been CT's understanding of the Legendarium and his desire to bring narrative continuity to the fragments which his father left. The son clearly had "access" to his father's understanding of Middle-earth and a sincere and profound imaginative grasp of it and of many of the works which went into his father's cauldron of stories. Clearly, no one will ever be in the same position as CT, who was offerred drafts of LotR for commentary while the book was being written and who was the first audience for TH. Yet the very presence of Christopher Tolkien's work, compounded with the progessive and framentary nature of JRR Tolkien's writing habits, provides a context which creates this sense that a hard and fast canon does not close off the possibility of other stories.

There is a world of difference between CT the scholar and the writers of the ST and SW universes. Yet hasn't CT invited, even inflamed, the desire, whetted by these other situations, for other Middle earth stories? Once JRRT opened up his imagination to CT, a subtle knife cut into the canonicity issue and the dust spills over.

[Sauron the White]

Is it possible that there can be some acceptable world in between those of THE CANON as written directly by Tolkien himself and the fan fiction area?

Yes, there will always be THE CANON because that is what it is. Like Robert DeNiro said in THE DEERHUNTER... "this is this". But given the reality of the present economics and publishing pressures, is it not inevitable that someday, someway, somehow, the Estate may decide that the best way to fight complete abdication of the copyright is to sanction a new hand selected writer to write Middle-earth tales? The literary estates of many other authors had to face that problem as copyright faced expiration - J. M. Barrie and PAN comes to mind of late - the Margaret Mitchell estate sanctioned a sequel to GONE WITH THE WIND, the James Bond books, just to name a few.

Perhaps we can find an area that is not considered THE CANON but is considerable more authoritative than fan fiction.