Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morwen

These are things that I think make Wide Sargasso Sea interesting to discuss as an independent work. But if I were analysing Bertha or Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre I don't know that I could or should rely on interpretations of those characters that Bronte never suggested. And this is why I think that Rhys' work has to be treated as distinct.

Originally Posted by Lal

Alas the Wide Sargasso Sea is a case in point of exactly why we should not allow Tolkien rip-offs. No student now can read Jane Eyre unadulterated, no student can take Charlotte Bronte's word for what it is - it is now forever tarnished thanks to Jean Rhys and her provocative, oppositional take on Bronte's work. She's entitled to do this of course, but I think it should have been left as an iconoclastic curiosity - instead it has been taken to heart by generations of lecturers scrambling for 'different interpretations'. Sigh. Poor Charlotte. But then she were only a humble Yorkshirewoman. What did she know in comparison to these clever Postmodernists.

Reading books is a dangerous thing. No telling who will come off better or worse, the ancients or the moderns.

Originally Posted by Lal

Hmmm, funny how that 500 years down the line Shakespeare's work has not been 'expanded' by the ponderings of ghost writers - you know, there is no Midsummer Nights Dream Part VIII (in the manner of Police Academy's many interminable parts). Why would Tolkien be any different? Only if he's to be considered not as a serious writer but as a producer of mere entertaining pap of course.

Shakespeare didn't write a mythology, didn't create a Legendarium, as Tolkien, Lewis, Asimov, Lucas, Whedon have done. And the interminable parts belong to the debate over who actually wrote the plays.

Originally Posted by davem

The point is whether anyone else can do what Tolkien did, have Tolkien's insight in to his own creation sufficient to enable them to create convincing stories set in his world. The answer is no.

There's the rub: convincing stories set in his world. convincing is a subjective state, so no follows only for you.

Originally Posted by davem

What you seem to be asking for is another writer's personal interpretation to be given extra weight by being officially sanctioned.

The original post asked if Tolkien encouraged others to take up his mythology. No mention of official sanction there.

[Lalwendë]

Well SpM is saying what I'm trying to say which is where is the beef?! You can all read and write as much fan fic as you like!

But no, it seems it has to have a brand name on it these days - alas that's the world we now live in where Nike Tolkien is going to be better than Tesco Value Tolkien. Never mind what's inside, just feel the packaging, check out the gold leaf JRRT Logo!

Yet how about Tolkien's own feelings about the machine? His name being utilised to Brand Name spurious extra 'stuff', more 'product'?

So for those who want to get Back To Basics, even though there is no argument to be won as Nobody Is Stopping You From Writing Fan-Fic, what did he say?:

But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story....I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.

Yes, nothing about writing more stories. And if you're not reading that quote right then I sincerely hope you're not thinking yourself good enough to follow in his footsteps.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lal

But no, it seems it has to have a brand name on it these days - alas that's the world we now live in where Nike Tolkien is going to be better than Tesco Value Tolkien.

Actually, I suspect that the choice would be between Tesco Tolkien and Tesco 'Read the Difference' Tolkien - same thing, just more nicely packaged and double the price.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Actually, I suspect that the choice would be between Tesco Tolkien and Tesco 'Read the Difference' Tolkien - same thing, just more nicely packaged and double the price.

And in this day and age of climate change we should be more environment conscious so maybe fan-fic on t'internet is more eco-friendly even than them nice shiny new editions of Children of Hurin.

See, it's better for your soul.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yes, nothing about writing more stories. And if you're not reading that quote right then I sincerely hope you're not thinking yourself good enough to follow in his footsteps.

Tolkien omitted tapestry and embroidery and quilting too, so I suppose that means no Middle-earth Bayeux Tapestry either. No need to say England should have a copy of her (?) own.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkien omitted tapestry and embroidery and quilting too, so I suppose that means no Middle-earth Bayeux Tapestry either. No need to say England should have a copy of her (?) own.

Though you would assume that 'paint' means Art - it is just a more poetic and subtle way of putting it of course that may be lost

Who wants the Bayeux tapestry? French muck.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Though you would assume that 'paint' means Art - it is just a more poetic and subtle way of putting it of course that may be lost

Who wants the Bayeux tapestry? French muck.

Nothing poetic about it, as it isn't inclusive. For centuries after the middle ages, the domestic arts were ignored as art forms in favour of the "higher" art of painting and sculpture, which were largely (although not entirely) the realm of males. It's something similar to that argument that to call the human race 'man' is to ignore half of the species. That argument, though, may be lost on some.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Nothing poetic about it, as it isn't inclusive. For centuries after the middle ages, the domestic arts were ignored as art forms in favour of the "higher" art of painting and sculpture, which were largely (although not entirely) the realm of males. It's something similar to that argument that to call the human race 'man' is to ignore half of the species. That argument, though, may be lost on some.

I know but we're talking about Tolkien and he was wise and cultured enough to know that the visual arts included a lot more than formal painting - he even had his Elves be Craftspeople instead of churning out Old Masters of Elrond (for Elladan to draw a moustache and beard on...). He was a follower of Morris.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I know but we're talking about Tolkien and he was wise and cultured enough to know that the visual arts included a lot more than formal painting

Originally Posted by Tolkien

The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.

So I suppose then we take that last word to include writing and those last three words to include musical productions?

Originally Posted by davem

With lots of pictures . . .

Yes, great achievements in graphic novels require those.

Originally Posted by davem

All my statements should be taken as subjective. The fact that they also happen to be objectively true merely strengthens my position.

How very considerate of you to provide a post for Eomer's rather dormant To the Merriment thread.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

There's the rub: convincing stories set in his world. convincing is a subjective state, so no follows only for you.

All my statements should be taken as subjective. The fact that they also happen to be objectively true merely strengthens my position.