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06-08-2007, 06:51 AM | #81 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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My argument has always been that what Tolkien said has to been seen in the context of what he wrote & when he wrote it, & most importantly who he was writing to. The idea that every single statement he ever made, on the record & off, to correspondents in personal letters, to newspapers, on film, in writings which were subsequently amended must all be given equal weight, is, frankly, a ludicrous position. Context is the issue. The argument here is whether anyone else can 'do a Tolkien', effectively, become another Tolkien. Quote:
This, again, is not the point. The point is whether anyone else can do what Tolkien did, have Tolkien's insight in to his own creation sufficient to enable them to create convincing stories set in his world. The answer is no. The other point which seems to be consistently ignored is Tolkien's absolute control over his creation - the fact that he had the power to change, amend & completely do away with whole chunks of his creation as it suited him. No other writer can do that. Tolkien could take off on the most extreme tangent (read 'Myths Transformed') & it is accepted as valid - even if many of us consider it to have been a mistake. No new writer could make even minor changes without being criticised. Personal interpretation/experience is not the issue here. We all experience M-e in a unique way. That is essential. What you seem to be asking for is another writer's personal interpretation to be given extra weight by being officially sanctioned. Fanfic is fanfic - whether its free via the Internet, or published by Harper Collins in a nice hardback with the JRRT monogram on it & priced at Ł18.99. If its not by JRRT its fanfic. |
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06-08-2007, 07:00 AM | #82 |
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*Hesitates before entering, takes a deep breath, and plunges in*
As someone who, after reading LotR, hoovered up all kinds of fantasy fiction (some of which I enjoyed immensely, some less so), got into playing AD&D, and failed to finish reading the Silmarillion at first attempt (aged 14), I find some of the opinions expressed here to be somewhat patronising. Is it not double standards to criticise the likes of Germaine Greer for her dismissive approach to Tolkien’s works, yet at the same time adopt an equally dismissive approach to other works of the ‘fantasy genre’? Whether or not someone enjoys a work and sees value in it is a very subjective thing. Greer and her ilk don’t like Tolkien, which is fair enough, but they then go on to attempt to force their opinion on others by ridiculing and disparaging the object of their dislike. Let us not adopt the same approach to other fantasy novels just because they are not for us or because we feel that, in our opinion, they do not match up to the standard set by Tolkien. Anyway, be that as it may, views, opinions and arguments on a pinhead are being thrown around all over the place here (something that I would never do ). So let’s get back to the facts. 1. Copyright in Tolkien’s published works lays with the Estate and that will remain the case for many years to come. 2. People write fanfic for their own personal enjoyment and for the enjoyment of others, and this appears to be tolerated by the Estate, provided that it is not done for commercial gain (which would most likely represent a breach of copyright in any event). 3. No work based upon Tolkien’s Middle-earth writings is likely to be commercially published or considered in any way authoritative unless authorised by the Estate, at least for the next 40 years or so. In light of these facts, what is the argument about? Fanfic will continue to be written and people who like that sort of thing will be able to continue to read and enjoy it. No authoritative work will be produced or marketed without the blessing of the Estate. That is a matter for the Estate. It is unlikely to happen, given their approach but, were it to happen, the work concerned would need to be of high quality and very much in line with Tolkien’s intended spirit in order to receive the Estate’s blessing, thus avoiding the ‘cheapening’ the Legendarium with ‘pulp imitators’. So where is the issue?
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06-08-2007, 07:28 AM | #83 | |||||
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06-08-2007, 08:08 AM | #84 | |
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Well SpM is saying what I'm trying to say which is where is the beef?! You can all read and write as much fan fic as you like!
But no, it seems it has to have a brand name on it these days - alas that's the world we now live in where Nike Tolkien is going to be better than Tesco Value Tolkien. Never mind what's inside, just feel the packaging, check out the gold leaf JRRT Logo! Yet how about Tolkien's own feelings about the machine? His name being utilised to Brand Name spurious extra 'stuff', more 'product'? So for those who want to get Back To Basics, even though there is no argument to be won as Nobody Is Stopping You From Writing Fan-Fic, what did he say?: Quote:
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06-08-2007, 08:27 AM | #85 | |
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06-08-2007, 08:38 AM | #86 | |
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06-08-2007, 09:05 AM | #87 | |
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Tolkien omitted tapestry and embroidery and quilting too, so I suppose that means no Middle-earth Bayeux Tapestry either. No need to say England should have a copy of her (?) own.
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06-08-2007, 09:12 AM | #88 | |
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Who wants the Bayeux tapestry? French muck.
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06-08-2007, 10:05 AM | #89 | |
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06-08-2007, 10:06 AM | #90 | |
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06-08-2007, 10:09 AM | #91 | |
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06-08-2007, 10:18 AM | #92 | |
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06-08-2007, 10:52 AM | #93 | |
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06-08-2007, 01:52 PM | #94 | ||||
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06-08-2007, 02:33 PM | #95 | |
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06-08-2007, 09:23 PM | #96 | |
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You know, I wonder-- if we assigned 1000 words to each picture drawn by every Tolkien illustrator and artist, that would probably exceed the length of LotR, wouldn't it? I think Tolkien got his wish.
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06-08-2007, 10:45 PM | #97 |
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Of all this I can but finally concede that unless some genius does arise who can put on paper a vision of Middle-earth beautiful enough that the Tolkien estate, as well as the majority of its literary fans, accepts it as worthy to be placed beside JRR Tolkien's own works, our comments are only echoes of the eternal battle between the hopeful and the conservative. That genius, if he ever exists, will not be relying on hope, nor will he shrink in the face of conservatism; and the next great story of Middle-earth won't be written in a literary forum.
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06-08-2007, 11:13 PM | #98 | |
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It seems to me that there can only be justification for asking for 'fuller' or completed versions of tales left unfinished by Tolkien, & I think its been shown that such versions are pretty much impossibilities. There is no justification (beyond the joy obtained by writers & readers of fanfic) for 'officially' sanctioned versions by other writers, as these writers have neither the absolute knowledge nor absolute control that Tolkien had over his creation - hence for that reason, however good & faithful said works were, they would ultimately be pale shadows of the original creation. The demand for 'other tales' set in M-e is asking for something that doesn't actually exist (Tolkien didn't tell those stories, didn't invent that part of M-e). Its like asking for someone to decorate your fifth bedroom when you live in a four bedroomed house - & I just know someone is going to respond by saying 'Well, you could employ someone to build an extention!' - which is the whole problem with analogies: people think that because they can demolish the analogy they can as easily change the reality the analogy is pointing up. The idea of 'graphic novels' of Tolkien's creation - whether adaptations of existing tales, or original stories - doiesn't really add anything to the argument of whether there could, or should be new tales - the form they may take does not really add anything to the discussion till we've reached a consensus on whether they are possible - or at least desirable. |
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06-09-2007, 12:02 AM | #99 |
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Lord of the Rings II
So Davem you think my Return of the Two Towering Kings and their Ring of Fellowship wouldn't sell then? , better start writing Potty Harry and the Goblins on Fire instead, or would you suggest Hairy Potter and the Prisoner is on a Razorban . All joking aside, if one person emerged that could and would write as the equal of Tolkien, there would be many more that would write junk, the world would be awash with piffle if it wasn't vetted properly. Fanfic does me quite fine, it's harmless fun and of which I have participated, of course I wish someone could write some more, but that wish would be wasted, for if I had one it would be that Tolkien had written more.
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06-09-2007, 12:30 AM | #100 | |
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And so on. What I don't get is why people want to pay for something they now get for free. It seems that what people want is to be told by the Estate what fanfic is good & what is bad. This seems to me to demonstrate a lack of the most basic critical judgement - of course, one admires the person who is so aware of their own lack of aesthetic sense that they are willing to pay to be told by those in authority what fiction is good & what is bad, & yet at the same time sad that it has to come to that. Their plaintive cries of 'Please tell me what is good Fanfic, O ye Lords of the Tolkien Estate, by putting JRRT's monogram on it & charging me Ł20 to buy it in hardback with nice colour plates by Ted Naismith! Else shall I not know whether the Middle-earth tales I come across on the Web are good or bad, for I am under a curse, as t'were laid on me by Morgoth himself, that I cannot tell whether a tale be worth the reading or not!' wring the heart of even the greatest cynic & the most unfeeling among us. Certes. Of course, the irony is that when copyright expires & people are free to publish new tales of M-e all Tolkien's works will instantly appear FOC on the net, so that people will be able to get Tolkien's work for nowt, & yet have to pay for the sequels that will appear to glut even the most desperate fan of fic - all of which will be published perfectly legally, & 99.9999% of which will be drivel. |
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06-09-2007, 10:07 AM | #101 | |
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Anyway this discussion brings to mind The New Shadow, where Tolkien himself attempted to write another Middle-earth story but failed miserably. The biggest stories of course had already been 'done' - any other Middle-earth story could only be a 'smaller' kind of tale unfortunately, and not half as good. Tolkien knew that the most he could hope for was to produce a kind of 'thriller' but any other story would entirely lack the sense of myth found in those he had already written. So, Tolkien failed to add more Middle-earth mythology. What makes us think we would be any better at coming up with something new and as exciting as LotR?
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06-09-2007, 10:46 AM | #102 |
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I simply am astounded how people can accurately look into the future and say with firm conviction and certainty that if anyone ever writes a real book (not fan fiction) about Middle-earth that it will be worthless crap. Sure, that is a possibility. But so is a real possibility that it could be good and enjoyable.
Could those who know the future so clearly please send me the winning lottery numbers for the next few weeks? It would be most appreciated and your talents would be praised with great praise. So somebody can get joy out of reading fan fiction but nobody will get joy from reading an officially sanctioned Middle-earth book written by somebody else? Really now? And this is known just how? Back to those lottery numbers I guess. I would think that unless the Estate does get a very good professional writer to perform such an undertaking and provides them with guidance and direction, the chances of an artistic failure are increased. Bit of a self fulfilling prophecy then to speculate than anybody who writes a Middle-earth tale would produce garbage. |
06-09-2007, 11:13 AM | #103 | ||
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You're right. Its not logically impossible. I just think that if we're going to have a sensible discussion on this we need more support for our arguments than 'Well, you can't prove 'X' won't happen one day.' |
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06-09-2007, 11:35 AM | #104 | |
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06-09-2007, 11:46 AM | #105 |
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How many people enjoy these tales written on fan sites versus the numbers who would be customers in mass market book form? I personally loathe trying to read lengthy fiction on a screen. I much prefer the printed page of a traditional book. I would make a wild guess that I am not alone.
CHILDREN OF HURIN - a tale that has been around for a number of years now in several forms and is hardly "new" - is selling some half a million copies. Maybe someone here could tell me what is the single most famous and best written piece of Middle-earth fan fiction and provide the number of how many hits it has gotten. Then compare that to a traditionally published book. And we are not talking about hypothetical legions of trained monkeys on typewriters. To compare it to that is simply not honest. |
06-09-2007, 11:56 AM | #106 | |
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If you had to pitch this idea to Christopher Tolkien would you seriously tell him that he needs to authorise new stories to facilitate your reading needs or so that people can conveniently purchase books his father never wrote? It seems to me that if the Estate were to be persuaded to authorise new stories, the reasons given would have to be less 'reader-centric'. It would have to be shown that this would benefit the Estate. Money I guess would be the easiest selling point but assuming the Estate might be more interested in the preserving Tolkien's legacy than in quick cash, why would it be interested in authorising new stories?
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He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said Last edited by Morwen; 06-09-2007 at 12:27 PM. |
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06-09-2007, 11:58 AM | #107 | |
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It seems that what is being asked for here is for a story/stories which are officially sanctioned in order to make them 'more' significant, & which can then be discussed & argued over on Internet fora. That & the desire to have a bunch of 'new' M-e volumes on people's bookshelves. Oh, these 'fantastic' books which are waiting to come into being! These books which don't exist in any shape or form. Has it occurred that to demand to have something which doesn't exist, simply because it is not logically impossible that it may one day exist is a bit of an odd demand to say the least? Sauron the White & Feanorsdoom - Now, if you had come across a fan work that you sincerely believed was good enough to stand alongside Tolkien's works I could understand you maybe contacting the Estate & petitioning fans for support in getting it published. As it is you seem to be arguing that one day such a story might be written & that it should then be published. You argue that the Estate should 'take a writer under its wing' & help & encourage him or her to be the next JRRT. I have to ask you in all sincerity who is this writer? Has anyone volunteered to become this writer? Have they written any M-e fiction as yet? Or is the Estate to advertise for a writer in the small ads? Are they to send out invitations to famous writers offering them a contract - even if the writers in question have no desire to write new M-e stories? Can we move away from this 'Well, its not logically impossible for someone one day to write new M-e stories" & have some names & background? Do you actually know of anyone who's putting themselves forward? If so, let's see what they've written & then we can decide whether they're likely to be any good. |
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06-09-2007, 01:05 PM | #108 | ||||
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06-09-2007, 02:42 PM | #109 | ||
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06-09-2007, 04:02 PM | #110 |
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I am not arguing that the Tolkien Estate needs to do anything in these matters at this time. Regardless of if it is in their interest or not. Copyright law being what it is, it looks like the legal protections extend to the year 2043 some 70 years after the death of JRRT. That is 36 years from now so the problem is not one that will be encountered soon. In fact, The Estate and its officials can well ignore this problem for the next three decades. The "problem" I refer to is the lapse of copyright protections on the world of Middle-earth.
Yes - I do understand that the Estate will employ various legal strategies to extend these legal protections and thwart Middle-earth stories even after this time. Yes - I do understand that a certain hardcore Tolkien following will resist any efforts to introduce new works in exactly the same spirit that we have seen evidenced here. Yes - I do understand that there will always be a hard and firm difference which can never be changed or altered between what was written by JRRT and anyone else no matter how good or how bad. Speaking for myself - and not trying to foist anything on anyone be it my opinion, my predictions for the future, or anything else - I simply would like to see many of the gaps filled in regarding the tales and histories of Middle-earth. I would like to see talented writers tell many of the tales about events, dates and people that are now only briefly sketched out or mentioned. I would enjoy this a great deal. Regardless of how anyone intreprets the words of JRRT in his letters, I do think this is in the spirit of his statement. I think it is a self fulfilling prophect to take a position which essentially says: - nobody can ever write anything about Middle-earth other than JRRT other than obscure fan fiction which is read by a small cadre of people outside of the main literary world - anything written by anyone else will not be as good, would most likely be crap or garbage so should be discouraged at all cost - current followers of JRRT will never accept it regardless of quality or sanction so the Estate should keep arms length from ever even considering official sanction. If those positions prevail, then what will happen is that in some 36 years much of what you fear will come true. What I would like to see: ideally - some sort of effort every few years where writers across the world are asked to submit stories of Middle-earth to a group set up by the Estate and their official publishers. A vetting process could be employed to insure quality and historical accuracy within the canon of work that we have now. Rules could be laid down to tell writers they cannot change anything that Tolkien already has established within that world. Then a book published - perhaps every few years - of authorized Middle-earth stories which clearly state who wrote them and they are not the work of JRRT, Christopher or anyone else Tolkien. I think that would be the best compromise that we could see. But thats just my opinion. It i not intended as a strategy for the Estate or anyone else. Its just what I would like to see. I do think that the sales response to CHILDREN OF HURIN - an old tale being disguised and marketed as a "new book" shows that there is a thirst out there for more Middle-earth. Last edited by Sauron the White; 06-09-2007 at 04:06 PM. |
06-09-2007, 05:05 PM | #111 | |
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After reading that I just give up on the whole thing. I hope that if they do it the first volume is dedicated to you.
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06-09-2007, 05:36 PM | #112 | ||
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He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said Last edited by Morwen; 06-09-2007 at 06:11 PM. |
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06-10-2007, 08:08 AM | #113 |
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davem ... I certainy respect your opinion and your scholarship. We will agree to disagree -- hopefully.
Allow me to ask this of you and others .... according to current laws, it will be 36 years until copyright expires barring future changes. If the copyright expiration were only a couple of years away, would you be more open to some sort of sanctioned ME stories by others with the blessing of the Estate to publicly and openly differentiate them from the eventual floodgates being opened and every hack writer trying their hand at it with no oversight at all? You probably cannot stop them once copyright expires, but you may be able to carve out a sanctioned vs. unsanctioned niche that would help readers make their choices with their purchasing dollars. |
06-10-2007, 08:57 AM | #114 | |
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I can only repeat that this is not about whether another writer can write entertaining stories set in Middle-earth, but whether they would be 'genuine'. What I'm arguing here is that what distinguishes Tolkien's creation from other fantasy worlds (& this statement would apply to Howard's Hyborean Age, Mirlees' Lud in the Mist, Dunsany's Pegana, Peake's Gormenghast, Eddison's Mercury, etc) is what he brought out of his experience. Other great fantasy worlds are great because they are unique. There are lots of generic fantasy worlds out there which anyone could set stories in, but the great fantasy worlds are special because of who wrote them. In short, what you're asking for is impossible. I've read some good M-e fanfic. I wrote a (so-so) M-e fanfic. The problem is, no fanfic is 100% convincing - there's always something 'missing', some point at which you stop & think, 'No, that doesn't seem right. And its not because the writer is a bad storyteller. Its because they're not Tolkien. If you haven't done so yet, get hold of John Garth's 'Tolkien & the Great War'. That will spell out to you as clearly as possible why only Tolkien could write convincing M-e stories. EDIT Look. If you take CoH as an example, you have one of the darkest, most hopeless, most tragic pieces of fiction ever produced. Its also one the earliest M-e stories Tolkien wrote. It has two 'sources', or two 'seeds'. First, mythological - the characters of Kullervo in the Kalevala & of Sigurd in the Volsungasaga, & second, 'biographical', in that it came into being in the post WWI period, when Tolkien had lived through the horrors of the Somme, & lost two out of his three closest friends. Garth talks about Tolkien 'seeing the world through enchanted eyes'. In other words the myths & fairy stories he had loved since childhood coloured his perception of the horror & loss he knew. There was a kind of 'feedback loop'. Myth fed into reality & reality fed into myth. What I would argue is that CoH could only come out of a personal experience of horror & loss of the most extreme kind. If another writer who had not had that kind of experience tried to write a tale like CoH they would either produce melodrama or farce. Same with Beren & Luthien - too autobiographical (as is Gondolin - as Garth shows). Other writers could, as I said, set stories in M-e. They could perhaps write good stories, as good, in their own way as Tolkien's own. But the 'Tolkien' element - which is the unique element in the M-e tales he gave us - would be absent.
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06-10-2007, 09:40 AM | #115 | |||
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However, if the defining criteria of acceptable writing about Middle-earth by another authors is this issue of "authenticity" -- lacking the genuine Tolkien element of autobiographical mind-mold (if not leafmold)--then why doesn't this issue of being genuine apply to Tolkien's own acceptance of his mythology in other art forms by other people? Autobiographical genuineness clearly didn't matter to Tolkien there.
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06-10-2007, 09:51 AM | #116 | ||
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That said, I think we have to go back to the vision of the TCBS if we're to understand where Tolkien was coming from in that desire that 'other hands' would be moved to add to his creation. Their sense of themselves as another pre-Rapaelite Brotherhood, the source of a potential moral regeneration of England is behind Tolkien's words. Finally, I can't help but feel that Tolkien underestimated his skill as an artist. He may have wished for other hands to add to his creation, but I think its clear that he, also, was wishing for this elusive 'genius' to appear out of nowhere. As with most of the letters, its best not to just take his statements at face value. |
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06-10-2007, 10:08 AM | #117 | |
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But somehow I don't think the 'authenticity' issue is of any matter when someone is adapting a story that's already been written by Tolkien. What are they gonna do? Hop in the nearest Tardis and go back and change details of his life?
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06-10-2007, 06:33 PM | #118 | |||
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Raynor, I appreciate your query about subjective perception and objectively true statements.
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06-11-2007, 12:13 AM | #119 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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And yet, I don't see that this is anything other than a side issue, a crazy tangential foray down a dead end road n'stuff. We're supposed to be discussing whether JRRT encouraged new M-e stories, not psycho-analysing each other, or indulging in a philosophical debate on subjectivity vs objectivity. |
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06-11-2007, 02:40 AM | #120 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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You previously phrased the subject in the subjective terms of whether someone can "create convincing stories set in his world" "The point is whether anyone else can do what Tolkien did, have Tolkien's insight in to his own creation sufficient to enable them to create convincing stories set in his world." We need to define a common point of reference, that is, are we talking objectivity or subjectivity, and not attempt to simultaneously play two irrenciliable positions. And, frankly, I expect even the "objective" position to be variable in time or geographically - just as morality is, as you and Lalwendë argued in other threads.
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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