The Autobiographical Tolkien - 'Leaf by Niggle'... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Guinevere · 06-11-2007, 10:29 AM

Browsing through Tolkien's letters , I recently came upon a sentence which ties in nicely with Niggle's Parish! I thought I'd share it with you!

Quote:

from letter #45 to his son Michael, written in June 1941:
"There is a place called "heaven" where the good here unfinished is completed; and where the stories unwritten, and the hopes unfulfilled, are continued."

So he had this idea, years before writing "Leaf by Niggle".
(Too bad I didn't discover this before your lecture, Esty!)

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-11-2007, 12:54 PM

Oh, but I can include that in my revision for the printed version of my lecture! Thanks for a great quote, Guinevere! (Revising and formatting for printing will be a major project this summer.)

07-10-2007, 11:34 AM

1) On Christopher, I can't find it at the moment (my collected Letters are literally in a box as I prepare to move), but I remember somewhere Tolkien warning his son that
a) He had great literary talent, but
b) It may not be the same as his, and that Christopher should try to find his own voice and distance himself from his shadow.

2) On the autobiographical/allegorical elements of Leaf by Niggle, I can only really present my own views and experiences. On the one hand, I know that Tolkien reveled in a bit of allegorical caricature (see pretty much everyone in Farmer Giles, representing the most ridiculous characteristics) of their "types." And perhaps that is at work in the utterly lawlike and practical Inspector, as Littlemanpoet pointed out.

I personally see Leaf by Niggle as a quiet reflection on the themes discussed above, and see Niggle as allegorically depicting Tolkien as Artist, but also feel I can understand why Tolkien didn't want it to be considered an allegory. I guess I would disagree if you said "so-and-so is such-and-such," but if you say "so-and-so exists and is this way in the story, and means this much to Tolkien, because of Tolkien's experiences with such-and-such," I wouldn't object. But I think the point of seeing the "allegory" is to understand the story as a story and absorb the meaning into our own lives, rather than merely to "figure it out." If that makes sense.

Estelyn Telcontar · 08-28-2007, 02:23 PM

I finished revising and formatting my lecture in preparation for publishing and am now proofreading a related lecture. Interestingly (though I will reveal no details, since I'm not the author) the author brings up the idea I had long ago, that Parish could be a representation of Edith!! Of course he realizes that the comparison doesn't work out completely. And of course I gave up that interpretation after discussing it here, and after reading Shippey's views on the topic...

davem · 08-28-2007, 02:42 PM

It seems to me - & I was discussing this elsewhere - that while the first part of Niggle may be seen as 'autobiographical', the second part (after he leaves on his 'journey') cannot be. It strikes me that it is more 'hope', or 'wishful thinking'. In other words its what he hopes his work will become - that it will be 'accepted' by the Voices, taken up & made something 'more', made 'Real'.

Yet he couldn't know that it would be. Part One is where he is, Part Two is where he hopes to be. Hence it could be argued that the least important part of LbN is the autobiographical part & the most important part the one that follows. And yet, the First Part would be simply 'bland', merely a resetting of his own life (or his perception of it), & tell us not very much. It is the 'dream' (or Dream) of what it will become that is significant - not the (allegorised) reality, but the Reality he hopes for. Hence it is not really 'autobiographical' at all. If Part To is an 'allegory' at all it is an allegory of his hope, of something that does not (or cannot be proved to) exist. One could almost call it a plea to the voices (& yet the Voices too are a Dream).

This calls into question his motivation, because for all he claims that his work has no 'meaning' or purpose beyond itself, it clearly does (in hope if not in actual fact). He desires that his work may be taken up & made into a Way beyond, in to & beyond the Mountains.

And yet, that being the case, was this little story the only way he could express that desire? He (it seems) could not state that his Legendarium would open a door to something greater, that it could open the gates of Heaven. That would be too much, too presumptious. But he could write a story about a little man, a painter, who painted a picture of a tree which proved to be a real Tree in a little land at the foot of the Mountains.

HerenIstarion · 08-29-2007, 02:25 AM

Generally being in agreement with you, davem, I have one tiniest bone to pick:

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

He desires that his work may be taken up & made into a Way beyond, in to & beyond the Mountains

Not beyond the Mountains - the work (Niggle's Parish) stays this side of the range, it is Niggle himself who goes with the shepherd. Toklien has been more humble than that

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-15-2008, 02:47 PM

A new book has just been released by Walking Tree Publishers: Tolkien's Shorter Works. It has a chapter on this topic; even the title is identical to that of this thread, though it's not a plagiarism - the author has my permission!

I heard most of the papers it contains as lectures at last year's Tolkien Seminar here in Germany, and they are well worth reading - highly recommended!

06-11-2007, 12:54 PM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Oh, but I can include that in my revision for the printed version of my lecture! Thanks for a great quote, Guinevere! (Revising and formatting for printing will be a major project this summer.) __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

08-28-2007, 02:42 PM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	It seems to me - & I was discussing this elsewhere - that while the first part of Niggle may be seen as 'autobiographical', the second part (after he leaves on his 'journey') cannot be. It strikes me that it is more 'hope', or 'wishful thinking'. In other words its what he hopes his work will become - that it will be 'accepted' by the Voices, taken up & made something 'more', made 'Real'. Yet he couldn't know that it would be. Part One is where he is, Part Two is where he hopes to be. Hence it could be argued that the least important part of LbN is the autobiographical part & the most important part the one that follows. And yet, the First Part would be simply 'bland', merely a resetting of his own life (or his perception of it), & tell us not very much. It is the 'dream' (or Dream) of what it will become that is significant - not the (allegorised) reality, but the Reality he hopes for. Hence it is not really 'autobiographical' at all. If Part To is an 'allegory' at all it is an allegory of his hope, of something that does not (or cannot be proved to) exist. One could almost call it a plea to the voices (& yet the Voices too are a Dream). This calls into question his motivation, because for all he claims that his work has no 'meaning' or purpose beyond itself, it clearly does (in hope if not in actual fact). He desires that his work may be taken up & made into a Way beyond, in to & beyond the Mountains. And yet, that being the case, was this little story the only way he could express that desire? He (it seems) could not state that his Legendarium would open a door to something greater, that it could open the gates of Heaven. That would be too much, too presumptious. But he could write a story about a little man, a painter, who painted a picture of a tree which proved to be a real Tree in a little land at the foot of the Mountains. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

03-15-2008, 02:47 PM	#7
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	A new book has just been released by Walking Tree Publishers: Tolkien's Shorter Works. It has a chapter on this topic; even the title is identical to that of this thread, though it's not a plagiarism - the author has my permission! I heard most of the papers it contains as lectures at last year's Tolkien Seminar here in Germany, and they are well worth reading - highly recommended! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-10-2007, 11:34 AM	#3
Chestertonian Ramble Guest Posts: n/a	1) On Christopher, I can't find it at the moment (my collected Letters are literally in a box as I prepare to move), but I remember somewhere Tolkien warning his son that a) He had great literary talent, but b) It may not be the same as his, and that Christopher should try to find his own voice and distance himself from his shadow. 2) On the autobiographical/allegorical elements of Leaf by Niggle, I can only really present my own views and experiences. On the one hand, I know that Tolkien reveled in a bit of allegorical caricature (see pretty much everyone in Farmer Giles, representing the most ridiculous characteristics) of their "types." And perhaps that is at work in the utterly lawlike and practical Inspector, as Littlemanpoet pointed out. I personally see Leaf by Niggle as a quiet reflection on the themes discussed above, and see Niggle as allegorically depicting Tolkien as Artist, but also feel I can understand why Tolkien didn't want it to be considered an allegory. I guess I would disagree if you said "so-and-so is such-and-such," but if you say "so-and-so exists and is this way in the story, and means this much to Tolkien, because of Tolkien's experiences with such-and-such," I wouldn't object. But I think the point of seeing the "allegory" is to understand the story as a story and absorb the meaning into our own lives, rather than merely to "figure it out." If that makes sense.

08-28-2007, 02:23 PM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I finished revising and formatting my lecture in preparation for publishing and am now proofreading a related lecture. Interestingly (though I will reveal no details, since I'm not the author) the author brings up the idea I had long ago, that Parish could be a representation of Edith!! Of course he realizes that the comparison doesn't work out completely. And of course I gave up that interpretation after discussing it here, and after reading Shippey's views on the topic... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'