Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, I don't 'get it'. The term 'lunch' is a casual term, short for 'luncheon' (derived from the Middle English 'nuncheon'); in other words a noontime meal. I don't see any correlation to the word lunch being a Hobbitish upper-middle class term..

Yes, very good point, perceptive, insightful & well worth making - I think you'll find I made it myself in the post that started this tangent off:

Now, lunch is wrong. 'Luncheon' is pushing it. 'Nuncheon' might work for a midday meal, but Hobbits would have Dinner at mid-day. Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper.

However, you're missing the point. Hobbits are primarily working class English folk. Working class English folk do not have 'lunch' - we have dinner. Clever arguments based on derivations of words are all very fine, but are rarely relevant when it comes to how people from various classes actually use language. I am a member of the English working class. I grew up among the English working class, & my whole family without exception were of the English working class, & I can tell you that at mid-day the English working class, certainly up to very recent years, have 'dinner' at mid-day, not 'lunch'. In fact, in Yorkshire we have our 'snap' at dinner time - snap being food & providing the term 'knapsack' which was originally 'snapsack', or food sack.

And, if you can tell me how this whole digression is relevant to the thread I'll be happy to continue it. If not, I'm happy to leave it here.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Yes, very good point, perceptive, insightful & well worth making - I think you'll find I made it myself in the post that started this tangent off:

No, actually your statement is the antithesis of what I said, but that's okay, because the whole matter seems to disturb you far more than it does me.

Originally Posted by davem

However, you're missing the point. Hobbits are primarily working class English folk. Working class English folk do not have 'lunch' - we have dinner. Clever arguments based on derivations of words are all very fine, but are rarely relevant when it comes to how people from various classes actually use language. I am a member of the English working class. I grew up among the English working class, & my whole family without exception were of the English working class, & I can tell you that at mid-day the English working class, certainly up to very recent years, have 'dinner' at mid-day, not 'lunch'. In fact, in Yorkshire we have our 'snap' at dinner time - snap being food & providing the term 'knapsack' which was originally 'snapsack', or food sack.

Yes, I am sure you are the salt of the earth and wave a red flag on May Day, but since Tolkien was not from Yorkshire, it seems evident the word 'lunch' did not manifest such a malevolent reaction in him as from you Northern Brits. In the U.S., 'dinner' has a much more formal connotation than 'lunch' (and in most cases dinner is interchangeable with 'supper'); but again, 'lunch' is used casually in several instances in the books and does not seem to have any profound or aristocratic intent other than a midday meal. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by davem

And, if you can tell me how this whole digression is relevant to the thread I'll be happy to continue it. If not, I'm happy to leave it here.

Well, let's see...we went from Elves (and Elvish horses) snorting to the dramatic interpretations of Lunch(eon). I don't see how one is more relevant than the other, and I do believe that you started the whole digression. But I will halt all unseemly and irrelevant discussion and return to contextual matters...
just as soon as someone reminds me what we were originally talking about.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, actually your statement is the antithesis of what I said, but that's okay, because the whole matter seems to disturb you far more than it does me.

I don't see how it is 'antithetical' when I was merely making the point that nuncheon, or even luncheon was preferable to the modern (English) Middle class term 'lunch'. It doesn't disturb me at all, to be honest. I was merely seeking to clarify my position.

Yes, I am sure you are the salt of the earth and wave a red flag on May Day, but since Tolkien was not from Yorkshire, it seems evident the word 'lunch' did not manifest such a malevolent reaction in him as from you Northern Brits. In the U.S., 'dinner' has a much more formal connotation than 'lunch' (and in most cases dinner is interchangeable with 'supper'); but again, 'lunch' is used casually in several instances in the books and does not seem to have any profound or aristocratic intent other than a midday meal. *shrugs*

Actually, I was not making a political but a social comment - that, being a member of the English working class I am able to comment on word usage among the English working class. Of course, Tolkien was not from Yorkshire (sad though that be for us tykes to admit, & probably a source of trauma to JRRT himself - you'd have to be English to realise how high this county is held in national esteem). He did, however, provide the Foreword to Haigh's 'A New Glossary of the Dialect of the Huddersfield District'. As Janet Brennan Croft comments:

In 1928, J.R.R. Tolkien published a six-page Foreword to A New Glossary of the Dialect of the Huddersfield District, written by Walter Edward Haigh, a long-time resident of that area. This dialect was of great interest to Tolkien as a philologist, since it comes from an area where the speech of the North and of the western Midlands overlap, and bears the linguistic marks of invasions from the Scandinavian countries, the fourteenth-century revival of Anglo-Saxon literature, and the Norman conquest. Tolkien is full of praise for the wide range of the glossary, its inclusion of both rare and common words, and the "excellence, humour, and idiomatic raciness of its illustrative quotations". He surely must have nodded in agreement with Haigh's own unequivocal statement that a local dialect "is as worthy of our care and pride as are our ancient buildings, and more than as intimately useful," and his encouragement of bilingualism in standard English and one's ancestral dialect. Huddersfield, located in West Yorkshire, is a fairly young town born during the Industrial Revolution out of a cluster of older, smaller villages. In 1890, its population was over 90,000, and it was considered one of the wealthier cities in the country, being a center for the engineering, brewing, cotton, and wool industries. Tolkien considers the dialect preserved in this glossary to be rather "conservative," retaining elements long abandoned in other regions, because of its isolation "out of the main way of such traffic as there was" before this time.

Yes, 'lunch' (as I've stated about 4 or 5 times in this debate, is used in the books, mostly by the narrator, & occasionally by upper middle class characters. Upper middle class characters among Hobbits are the exception rather than the rule, The Shire having a social organisation the nearest equivalent of which would have been probably medieval Iceland (rather than England, due to the 'anarchic' political regime favoured by Tolkien). The way 'lunch'/'dinner' is used in America is both irrelevant to the way it is used in England (specificallly the English midlands) & therefore how it would be used by Hobbits, & conversely, of supreme importance - if a sequel is to be written by an American (& before anyone accuses me of bias I'd say the same about a sequel written by a middle class english writer.

Now, to repeat myself again, it was a generalisation, made in a rush. I'll try not to do it again. It was also, as I've shown, generally correct, from a linguistic point of view. What I will concede though, is that only middle class Hobbits would (or should) use the word 'lunch', that being a contraction of luncheon, only recorded from 1829, according to the On-line Etymology Dictionary - which is the only resource I can be bothered to consult at the moment.

Well, let's see...we went from Elves (and Elvish horses) snorting to the dramatic interpretations of Lunch(eon). I don't see how one is more relevant than the other, and I do believe that you started the whole digression. .

I did do that, for which I'm heartily sorry. I even acknowledged it was a digression, & basicallly irrelevant to the main topic. I didn't mention the Elvish horses snorting, merely pointing out that Elves don't snort. The differences between Elves & their horses would probably justify a whole thread in itself, & I will not risk taking this thread any further off topic by starting a list here.

[Lalwendë]

Tolkien may not have been from Yorkshire, and in contrast to davem I reckon he was quite pleased about that - he did have a fondness for Lancashire's green and verdant valleys - but he would have well known the essential difference between lunch and dinner. This is in the very blood of the English, class is of vital importance to us, to none more so than the eternally anxious middle classes.

Note how Tolkien makes play of a Lancastrian working class term for dinner - baggin becomes Baggins, a witty name for a Hobbit obsessed with his grub. Rather like snap this word comes from the fact that the working man's main meal of the day was carried off to the field or foundry in a bag.

If you think the use of 'lunch', 'dinner' and other terms amongst Hobbits is entirely casual on Tolkien's behalf you are sorely mistaken. He was an Englishman, keenly aware of class and language and how they are interlinked, as shown in his work; in The Shire there is much satire on the British way of life - cast that subtlety aside at your peril

[davem]

What's interesting is that 'lunch' does not appear in The Hobbit at all ('lunchtime' is used once) - based on an overly quick skim. In FotR the word is used 8 times - 7 times by the narrator & once by Pippin. In TT it is used twice - once by Merry & once by Gimli:

'No, I don't think so," Merry laughed. "But that is another story, which can wait until after lunch." "Well let us go and have lunch then!" said the Dwarf.

- though there one gets the sense that Gimli is 'mirroring' Merry's language, either out of politeness or friendly teasing - 'lunch' is hardly a Dwarvish term one feels.

In RotK it isn't used at all. Hence, a specifically middle-class term for the mid-day meal * (arising, as I stated, in the early 19th Century), &, given the nature of Hobbit society, not one that would be in general usage - given the fact that Hobbits are based on rural English folk & that 'lunch' is not a word used by rural English folk.

* cf the Asparagus/'Sparrowgrass' thing - Asparagus is to Lunch what Sparrowgrass is to dinner. Or, in other words, Merry & Pippin would eat Asparagus for lunch, while Sam & the Gaffer would have Sparrowgrass for dinner. Or the bitter Nasturtians/Nasturtiums controversy.....

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If you think the use of 'lunch', 'dinner' and other terms amongst Hobbits is entirely casual on Tolkien's behalf you are sorely mistaken. He was an Englishman, keenly aware of class and language and how they are interlinked, as shown in his work; in The Shire there is much satire on the British way of life - cast that subtlety aside at your peril

Originally Posted by davem

In RotK it isn't used at all. Hence, a specifically middle-class term for the mid-day meal * (arising, as I stated, in the early 19th Century), &, given the nature of Hobbit society, not one that would be in general usage - given the fact that Hobbits are based on rural English folk & that 'lunch' is not a word used by rural English folk.

*The Dark Elf notes with delight the continuance of a digression*

Considering the controversy swirling about the terms 'lunch' and 'dinner' (which obviously is the demarkation point between civilized society and utter chaos), I briefly perused LOTR this morning and found a discussion in the Ivy Bush between the Gaffer, Old Noakes, Ted Sandyman, Daddy Twofoot and other rustic, working class stiffs. This comment I found most interesting:

'I've heard they went on the water after dinner in the moonlight," said Old Noakes, and it was Drogo's weight as sunk the boat.'

Two things here: 1) 'dinner' takes place in the evening, and 2) the phrase 'as sunk the boat' identifies Old Noakes' speech pathology as working class, as neither Frodo, Sam, Merry or Pippin use such figures of speech (which are reserved to identify rustics such as Sam, the Gaffer and Sandyman).

I think you're both confusing Hobbits with actual people. The Hobbits, even the poorest, ate more meals a day ('six if they could get it') than we do; ergo, they would naturally have more designations for meal times that the entire Hobbitish society would consider acceptable terminology.

[Morwen]

Fascinating digression. I can't help but think this is precisely the kind of debate that would take place if persons began creating/reformulating "official" Middle Earth stories. Do Elves snort? Do Hobbits have 'lunch'? And of course the eternal question "What would Tolkien say?"

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Two things here: 1) 'dinner' takes place in the evening, and 2) the phrase 'as sunk the boat' identifies Old Noakes' speech pathology as working class, as neither Frodo, Sam, Merry or Pippin use such figures of speech (which are reserved to identify rustics such as Sam, the Gaffer and Sandyman).

Hobbits have no beards. There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off. They are inclined to be fat in the stomach; they dress in bright colours (chiefly green and yellow); wear no shoes, because their feet grow natural leathery soles and thick warm brown hair like the stuff on their heads (which is curly); have long clever brown fingers, goodnatured faces, and laugh deep fruity laughs (especially after dinner, which they have twice a day when they can get it) (TH An Unexpected Party).

Clearly the 'dinner' Noakes is referring to is 'second' dinner.

In The Council of Elrond we have Bilbo stating:

'Exactly! And who are they to be? That seems to me what this Council has to decide, and all that it has to decide. Elves may thrive on speech alone, and Dwarves endure great weariness; but I am only an old hobbit, and I miss my meal at noon. Can't you think of some names now? Or put it off till after dinner?'

Even Pippin is not averse to using the traditional term for the mid-day meal:

'Nine o'clock we'd call it in the Shire,' said Pippin aloud to himself. 'Just the time for a nice breakfast by the open window in spring sunshine. And how I should like breakfast! Do these people ever have it, or is it over? And when do they have dinner, and where?'

Now, unless you want to argue that Pippin, thinking he has missed breakfast, is expecting the next meal to be an evening 'dinner' (ie that he is planning on going from nine in the morning to six or seven in the evening without food) one has to assume that he is thinking of the meal that follows breakfast - which is not 'lunch', apparently, but 'dinner'.

What this clearly shows is that 'lunch' is not even the only way that middle class Hobbits refer to the mid-day meal. They will as happily say 'dinner'. What we see, therefore, is that the mass of Hobbits call the mid-day meal 'dinner'. A couple of middle class dandies among them use the affected term 'lunch'. All other uses of 'lunch' are down to the narrator/translator.