Christopher Tolkien to finish lost Middle Earth novel

[davem]

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2007/0521/dri...16476836781993

Interview on RTE radio - couple of Tolkien 'experts' getting stuff wrong, clip from the movie, clip of Tolkien & even some of Leonard Nimoy's Ballad of Bilbo Baggins...

[Lalaith]

The AN Wilson article - loved it, but a sloppy error, indeed.

May not be his fault though, could be the sub-editors. Even if Wilson had made the error, the subs should really have picked it up, anyway. *Tsk* What is the Telegraph coming to.

[davem]

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/...dren_of_hurin/

[Nogrod]

I know Lommy promised to give in a short quote from the Finninsh version of the CoH to Davem but now as she will be away in the countryside for a couple of weeks and I have the translated version here I might go on and fulfill her promise - adding the original Finnish version from the same scene from Kalevala just for curiosity.

So this is the death of Túrin / Kullervo. I can't give the first words from the English original as my daughters took it away with them as Lommy's little sis will wish to read it on their holiday but this is from the end of the last chapter Túrin's death, from after the last words of Túrin to Mablung where he says that he has been blind and calls for them to leave him and to go back to Doriath - and cursing both their trip and Menegroth itself. The preceding paragraph ends with the words "the night is falling".

From the Finnish version of the CoH.

Originally Posted by CoH in Finnish

Ja nyt hän pakeni heidän luotaan kuin tuulispää ja heidät täytti ihmetys ja pelko. Mutta Mablung sanoi: "Jotain kauheaa ja outoa on tapahtunut, josta me emme mitään tiedä. Seuratkaamme häntä ja auttakaamme jos voimme sillä hän on mieltä vailla ja hakee kuolemaa."

Mutta Túrin kiiruhti heidän edellään ja tuli Cabed-en-Arasille ja seisoi siinä; hän kuuli veden ärjynnän ja näki, että kaikki puut olivat kärventyneet ja niiden kuivat lehdet putoilivat murheellisesti ikään kuin olisi tullut talvi kesken kesän päivien.

"Cabed-en-Aras, Cabed Naeramarth!" hän huusi. "Minä en saastuta vesiäsi, jotka huuhtovat Nínielin pois. Sillä kaikki tekoni ovat olleet pahat, ja pahin viimeinen."

Ja hän veti esiin miekkansa ja sanoi: "Terve Gurthang, kalman rauta, vain sinä yksin olet jäljellä! Onko sinulla muuta herraa kuin käsi, joka sinua käyttelee? Et kavahda kenekään verta. Otatko siis Túrin Turambarin? Surmaatko minut sukkelaan?"

Ja terästä kuului kylmä ääni vastaukseksi: "Mieluusti juon vertasi unohtaakseni herrani Belegin veren ja syyttä surmatun Brandirin veren. Sukkelaan surmaan sinut."

Silloin Túrin löi kahvan maahan ja heittäytyi Gurthangin terään ja musta miekka otti hänen henkensä.

Now about the same thing in Finnish Kalevala happens after Kullervo after learning his deed with her sister and her fate has returned to his old homeplace and finds everything deserted and empty and then his mother's voice from the grave tells him to go to the wild and search for the maidens of the forest to take care of him - like going back to Nargothrond where it would be safe. And Kullervo like Túrin declines the offer.

In Finnish Kalevala it is told this way.

Originally Posted by Kalevala

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Otti koiransa keralle,
Läksi tietä telkkimähän,
Korpehen kohoamahan;
Kävi matkoa vähäisen,
Astui tietä pikkaraisen,
Tuli tuolle saarekselle,
Tuolle paikalle tapahtui,
Kuss' oli piian pilannunna,
Turmellut emonsa tuoman.

Siin itki ihana nurmi,
Aho armahin valitti,
Nuoret heinät hellitteli,
Kuikutti kukat kanervan
Tuota piian pillamusta,
Emon tuoman turmelusta,
Eikä nousnut nuori heinää,
kasvanut kanervankukka,
Ylennyt sijalla sillä,
Tuolla paikalla pahalla,
Kuss' oli piian pilannunna,
Emon tuoman turmellunna.

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Tempasi terävän miekan,
Katselevi, kääntelevi,
Kyselevi, tietelevi;
Kysyi mieltä miekaltansa,
Tokko tuon tekisi mieli
Syöä syyllistä lihoa,
Viallista verta juoa.

Miekka mietti miehen mielen,
Arvasi uron pakinan,
Vastasi sanalla tuolla;
"Miks' en söisi mielelläni,
Söisi syyllistä lihoa,
Viallista verta joisi?
Syön lihoa syyttömänki,
Juon verta viattomanki."

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Sinisukka äijön lapsi,
Pään on peltohon sysäsi,
perän painoi kankahesen,
Kären käänti rintahansa,
Itse iskihe kärelle,
Siihen surmansa sukesi,
Kuolemansa kohtaeli.

Shortly and not actually translated but just described...

The first paragraph:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo took his dog with him and went to the wilds. After a short trek he came to the place where he had "marred the maid, spoiled the one her mother had brought to a life".

The second:
The grass was wailing and the flowers were groaning for the misdeed. No young grass would grow or heaths blossom there as it was a dark place where the maid had been marred, the one mother had brought a life was spoiled.

The third:
Kullervo takes his sword and looks at it, turns it around and asks it questrions and thinks. Asking then from it whether it would eat the guilty flesh, drink the vile blood?

The fourth:
The sword thought about the mind of the man, getting into what he was thinking. answered with the words: "Why shouldn't I eat gladly, eat the guilty flesh and drink the vile blood? I eat the flesh of innocents and drink the blood of those with no vice as well."

The fifth:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo set the hilt of the sword to the ground and brought the edge of it to his chest. He threw himself to the sword. There he met his death.


So no Glaurung here but things at the level of structure, minor details and motive bearing a lot of resemblances indeed.

[davem]

Thank you so much.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now about the same thing in Finnish Kalevala happens after Kullervo after learning his deed with her sister and her fate has returned to his old homeplace and finds everything deserted and empty and then his mother's voice from the grave tells him to go to the wild and search for the maidens of the forest to take care of him - like going back to Nargothrond where it would be safe. And Kullervo like Túrin declines the offer.

In Finnish Kalevala it is told this way.

Shortly and not actually translated but just described...

The first paragraph:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo took his dog with him and went to the wilds. After a short trek he came to the place where he had "marred the maid, spoiled the one her mother had brought to a life".

The second:
The grass was wailing and the flowers were groaning for the misdeed. No young grass would grow or heaths blossom there as it was a dark place where the maid had been marred, the one mother had brought a life was spoiled.

The third:
Kullervo takes his sword and looks at it, turns it around and asks it questrions and thinks. Asking then from it whether it would eat the guilty flesh, drink the vile blood?

The fourth:
The sword thought about the mind of the man, getting into what he was thinking. answered with the words: "Why shouldn't I eat gladly, eat the guilty flesh and drink the vile blood? I eat the flesh of innocents and drink the blood of those with no vice as well."

The fifth:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo set the hilt of the sword to the ground and brought the edge of it to his chest. He threw himself to the sword. There he met his death.

So no Glaurung here but things at the level of structure, minor details and motive bearing a lot of resemblances indeed.

I must commend you on an excellent post, Nogrod. I would add to your rep points, unfortunately the forum is not allowing me to do so currently.

Humorously, this information ties in exactly with a point I was making in another thread; in fact, I feel like quoting your entire post and placing it in the other thread.

[davem]

And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Ring...5307543&sr=8-7

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Ring...5307543&sr=8-7

Perhaps if they used a George MacDonald book (or even Andrew Lang) for a Tolkien source it would make more sense. There are direct references to MacDonald's work in the Hobbit, but I can't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Eddison. As far as 'The Worm of Ouroboros', there are too many words and not enough periods. Eddison loved his sentences so much he could never finish them. His naming conventions leave something to be desired as well (not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!