THIS exists in M-E?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hobbitish society itself is anachronistic to Middle-earth, and that is part of its charm: westkits, umbrellas, afternoon tea (and lunch *winks*), clocks, etc.

That's because it's English

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That's because it's English

No, the Shire is charming in spite of it being English, which is a feat of literary mastery on the part of Tolkien. *snickers*

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, the Shire is charming in spite of it being English, which is a feat of literary mastery on the part of Tolkien. *snickers*

So you say England is not charming?

Off With His Head! Why, it is Jerusalem itself!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So you say England is not charming?

Off With His Head! Why, it is Jerusalem itself!

Jerusalem? Well, I suppose you can build Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land; however, you have yet to remove the Satanic mills. Sorry about the William Blake reference, but how often can one interject Blake into everyday conversation?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Jerusalem? Well, I suppose you can build Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land; however, you have yet to remove the Satanic mills. Sorry about the William Blake reference, but how often can one interject Blake into everyday conversation?

Jerusalem is already here, and the Satanic Mills were taken care of by one Mrs T, but as to how often you can get Blake into everyday conversation? You can't do it enough!

[sallkid]

don't mean to flog a dead horse, but on the subject of gandalf's fireworks.

It's concievable (though would be almost completely anathemic) that gandalf supplemented his fireworks with his own power or the power of his ring (which i believe was known as the "ring of fire") Although someone as wise as gandalf probably wouldn't have used a ring of power so frivlously, it is possible that, after the fall of the necromancer he felt safe using this power, untill the rumours of the dark lord rose again.

On the subject of trains, it could refer to a wagon train. Carrying people or supplies through the shire. this fails to take into account the hiss of steam but a wagon train travelling an "express" route would surely travel at the greatest speed possible?

Please forgive my sincere lack of knowledge in this respect.

[Son of Númenor]

Bilbo himself is furthermore fairly easy to place both socially and even chronologically. If one did not have the rest of the book [The Hobbit] to go on, one would have to place him, on internal evidence, from a time after the discovery of America, for he smokes a pipe, and indeed the last words of the whole book are 'tobacco-jar' ('tobacco' is not recorded in English by the OED till 1588). But one could be more precise than that, for when Bilbo wishes to discourage Gandalf he takes out 'his morning letters', which are clearly routinely delivered early every day. Bilbo must live, then, after the introduction of a postal service - our familiar system dates, in England, from 1837. In a more indirect way Bilbo might also be thought to date from a time after railway-engines, for though it is the narrator's term not his own, when his nerve finally breaks he shrieks 'like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel' (the first freight-and-passenger steam railway in England opened in 1825, the first railway tunnel dating from five years later). (Shippey, J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, Chapter I: The Hobbit: Re-Inventing Middle-earth)

This tidbit just fell into my lap as I began reading Shippey's book (which I highly recommend thus far!). The chapter goes on to discuss the ways in which Bilbo begins his journey through the ancient fairy tale world of The Hobbit as an anachronistic traveler, a solid connection to Victorian and Edwardian values. Gradually the playing field is leveled, so to speak, to the point where he becomes 'worthy', in Shippey's words, of interaction with the mythic.

The LotR passage in question in this thread is one of the final snips at the tether that binds the hobbits safely to contemporary English-ness; after the first few chapters they are thrust squarely into the ancient mythological landscape with only a few glimpses backward.

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by sallkid

don't mean to flog a dead horse, but on the subject of gandalf's fireworks.

It's concievable (though would be almost completely anathemic) that gandalf supplemented his fireworks with his own power or the power of his ring (which i believe was known as the "ring of fire") Although someone as wise as gandalf probably wouldn't have used a ring of power so frivlously, it is possible that, after the fall of the necromancer he felt safe using this power, untill the rumours of the dark lord rose again.

I believe that in The Hobbit, it is mentioned that Lakedown had seen fireworks, not necessarily of Gandalf's making. I would agree that the fireworks might have been the result of Gandalf's power (he had shown similar powers by lighting the branch to stave off the wolves on Caradhras, or the flash that killed the goblins in The Hobbit) except that Saruman, who did not have any known specialty in flame, was able to weaponize some form of gunpowder/explosive to unmake the wall of Helm's Deep.

On the subject of trains, it could refer to a wagon train. Carrying people or supplies through the shire. this fails to take into account the hiss of steam but a wagon train travelling an "express" route would surely travel at the greatest speed possible?

Please forgive my sincere lack of knowledge in this respect.

Already mentioned above, and I believe the consensus tends to be that a wagon train would neither rumble nor whistle.