Faith and Choices

[Lalwendë]

When Arwen says 'there is no ship that will bear me hence' I always take it as not that there is literally no ship, but that she simply would not go there, that she wants to go where her husband has gone. And that underlines just how much this is all about simple love between a couple.

You could take many relationships, including the one between Aragorn and Arwen, where one partner believes one thing strongly, and the other something else, something opposite or nothing at all (not meaning they are a nihilist, that they may be an atheist). Yet for a lot of couples in order to be together one needs to convert or to at least go along with the rituals etc of the other partner. In Tolkien's case, he wanted Edith to convert to Catholicism and she did, though I understand she was never very happy about it - in an Anglican society of which she had been very much an active part it left her somewhat on the margins. But that is what Love does, it often causes partners to compromise. How many of us have seen white women who take the veil when they marry a Muslim man? That's a big step to take, especially bearing in mind the abuse some of these women endure just because of what they wear. But it is love which does this.

Now bearing that in mind, I don't think there is a conflict in Tolkien's work between belief and love - in fact in showing us the example of Aragorn and Arwen he shows us that Love can be stronger and can overcome lifelong held beliefs for good or bad. And Arwen does not simply go against a religion that she has been brought up with but against her very nature. You can only presume that it was love for her husband that made her take the choice to be mortal and to die, and part of that love must have been to believe what he told her - that they would meet again.

What does intrigue me is how it always seems to be the woman who compromises

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Yet, he seem to have an insight beyond that of the Eldar, or at least beyond that of the half-elven.

Arwen already made the choice to become mortal

Originally Posted by Many Partings, RotK

I shall not go with him now when he departs to the Havens; for mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter.

This is made even more explicit in HoME XII:

Originally Posted by The Tale of Years of the Third Age,

At midsummer Arwen came with Elrond and Galadriel and her brethren, and she was wedded with Aragorn Elessar, and made the choice of Luthien.

We also know that this choice was irrevocable:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.

Originally Posted by radagastly

I'm curious about Tolkien's view of the inherent conflict between love of God and Romantic love.

In letter #43, Tolkien tells his son Michael about the dangers of love in modern times. He considers one of the weakness of the then still strong romantic tradition the idealisation of Love and Lady, above or ignoring God; the fault lies in the fact that both partners are fallen beings, and none deserve to be idealised as guiding stars. Instead of this false and make-believe approach, he argues for religious principles, and that "the real soul-mate is the one with you are actually married to", while pursuing divorces to give a chance to "what if" is only illusory (he actually calls divorce to be a "human abuse").

[Lalwendë]

At the risk of sounding all "hey man" stories like that of Aragorn and Arwen show how something as seemingly simple as a human relationship can transcend all those human created mental boundaries of race, colour and religion. Love is that powerful. Think about Aragorn - what he must achieve in order to 'win' this woman, and Arwen, what she must endure with him being away and engaged in a desperate and seemingly unwinnable struggle, all the while knowing that in terms of lifespan his is just that of a mayfly compared to that of a centenarian. They remain faithful through long separation (which brings Aragorn's steadfast but kind position over Eowyn positively flinging herself at him into even sharper relief) and it must seem totally against the odds that they will ever be together. But they still manage it because if its real, you will do anything for that other person.

[Rikae]

This is such an intriguing thread, radagastly!

I'm not the most well-read in Tolkien (only LOTR and the Silm, working on UT), but my first thought was that the love for God, in Tolkien, tests Romantic love and prompts it, sometimes painfully, to grow into it's fullest form or manifest its true strength. While it sometimes seems to be in opposition to Romantic love, it seems that when the lovers are deternined to the point of self-sacrifice, even 'the rules' are bent (never broken) and a solution is found. For example, Elwing following Eärendil ashore; Luthien (and then Arwen) choosing mortality.

Similar, I think, is the .... I don't know if this is quite the right phrase, but the performance of heroic deeds by the men in order to win their ladies honorably; for example. Beren going after the Silmaril when he could have stayed with Luthien in hiding... This reminds me of the choice of Tristan and Iseult to leave their exile in the forest; the choice to 'play by the rules', no matter how dangerous and difficult, rather than take the easy route to be together seems to be a common theme in medieval romances as well as Tolkien; it's an interesting thing because on the one hand, it seems to go against love or imply it is weak, but on the other, to prove it is strong.

I think that maybe religion and society/fathers etc. play a similar role for Tolkien's couples in a sense, by setting up challenges for the couple whereby both their love and honor are tested; however in addition, with the 'religious' themes, like accepting or defying death, there is a sense that, by denying God's will/the nature of things for each other's sake, they couple would ultimately be denying each other and their love, since these are dependant on that same ground (God/universe/reality); so, paradoxically, they must lose each other to remain faithful to each other; themselves, and their love.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

What does intrigue me is how it always seems to be the woman who compromises

Not always. What about Eärendil?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

At the risk of sounding all "hey man" stories like that of Aragorn and Arwen show how something as seemingly simple as a human relationship can transcend all those human created mental boundaries of race, colour and religion.

Well, it wasn't simply their relationship at play; seeing that they are Man and Elf, the intrusion of the One is implied even more strongly in their case than in general:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I think that maybe religion and society/fathers etc. play a similar role for Tolkien's couples in a sense, by setting up challenges for the couple whereby both their love and honor are tested

I can only be reminded of Tolkien's life itself, where he had to wait for three years, until he finished school, at 21 years of age, before he could see his beloved again. He did this in order to avoid "disobeying and grieving (or deceiving) a guardian who had been a father to me, more than most real fathers".

Originally Posted by Letter #43, emphasis original

For very nearly three years I did not see or write to my lover. It was extremely hard, painful and bitter, especially at first...But I don't think anything else would have justified marriage on the basis of a boy's affair; and probably nothing else would have hardened the will enough to give such an affair (however genuine a case of true love) permanence. On the night of my 21st birthday I wrote again to your mother – Jan. 3, 1913. On Jan. 8th I went back to her, and became engaged, and informed an astonished family.

[Lalwendë]

And Tolkien himself ran a great risk of losing Edith - she was engaged to someone else by the time he wrote to her again. And you can't help thinking he must have been quite a catch for her to break off an engagement to go back to him. The cove.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Letter #43, emphasis original
For very nearly three years I did not see or write to my lover. It was extremely hard, painful and bitter, especially at first...But I don't think anything else would have justified marriage on the basis of a boy's affair; and probably nothing else would have hardened the will enough to give such an affair (however genuine a case of true love) permanence. On the night of my 21st birthday I wrote again to your mother – Jan. 3, 1913. On Jan. 8th I went back to her, and became engaged, and informed an astonished family.

Now, that is incredibly romantic! And it makes me wonder whether such challenges actually make love stronger; test it; or perhaps some combination of the two (allowing it to mature properly, in a way - like the "new think" in horticulture which says you shouldn't stake trees, in order that their root systems can be strengthened by the wind. "New" being rather ironic here, obviously...). Certainly Tolkien seems to have believed that it was more than a test: "however genuine a case of true love".

It also makes my situation look a little less daunting...

[Lalwendë]

I'm just imagining what agonies he must have gone through over the five days between writing to Edith and meeting her again (and whether the reunion was awkward or not!) - I must have a look if there was any intervening correspondence?

If you think about it, had he gone ahead and married her while still very young, would this have affected his Oxford career?

It also shows how different relationships were in years gone by, that a woman could expect to eventually be married to any serious suitor - Tolkien was forced to be honourable and effectively give up Edith as there was no sign of immediate marriage on the horizon - she seems to have thought he may have given her up as she was engaged to someone else!