Morgoth and Doriath

[Raynor]

By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian.

Please, the quote you are apparently referring to mentions that Morgoth distorted the facts concerning Thingol and Melian, not what you have stated.

Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.

Again, the purpose of sending out Hurin to further his hatred between Men and Elves; a pretty general purpose. As far as foreseeing, it is based on knowledge of the music, of which Morgoth did not have much, as he was too busied at that time with his own distorted theme (even Sauron had more knowledge in that respect), and more less so in terms of the Eruhini.

[Rikae]

No, the quote says what it says - again:

In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

and makes it quite clear he had more than simply a general purpose. Your quote implies that only taken out of context.
But you may now have the last word, since you've successfully killed my interest in this "discussion".

[Raynor]

Unhappy was the lot of Hurin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Hurin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them, and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The quote with "sought most" reffers to what Morgoth let Hurin know. It is further in the paragraph, the bolded part, that deal with his intent in releasing Hurin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think perhaps you're underrating the intelligence and power of the self-styled Master of the Fates of Arda. I just read a very lucid amateur review of CoH, which likened Morgoth to a chessmaster playing an amateur: seeing the board a dozen moves ahead, anticipating everything his victim might do and having a counter ready.* I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.


NB: There is no authentic JRRT text associating Hurin with the Nauglamir: in all versions pre-Christopher Thingol has the Necklace made from the hoard after Hurin departs. Nor did JRRT ever say anything about Hurin being healed.




* I've been that amateur, and it's a horrible, suffocating feeling, like being Kaa the Python's prey.

[Morwen]

Rikae, I am sorry that you are no longer interested in the discussion. However, I also don't think that Morgoth casting Melian and Thingol in a bad light has anything to do with any plan by Morgoth to destroy Doriath.
Doriath's doom is set in motion by Thingol's demand of a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Melian points out soon after that he has doomed either his daughter or himself and "now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm" (Of Beren and Luthien, Silm) Doriath's doom is effectively sealed once a Silmaril finds its way into Thingol's possession. Hurin or no Hurin, Nauglamir or no Nauglamir, Doriath is doomed.
However, does Hurin provide a catalyst for Doriath's destruction? Evidently so. His gift of Nauglamir sets off the chain of events which will end with Thingol's surviving grandchild living as a refugee by the sea. Is this all some part of grand scheme cooked up by Morgoth? I would argue no.

(1) The quote that you have cited that "in all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" has to be read in light of the preceding paragraph:

So ended the tale of Turin Turambar; but Morgoth did not sleep nor rest from evil, and his dealings with the house of Hador were not yet ended. Against them his malice was unsated, though Hurin was under his eye, and Morwen wandered distraught in the world.

So despite the fact that Hurin's children are at this point dead, Morgoth is still intent on punishing Hurin. Not only will Hurin grieve the loss of his children but because Morgoth "sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" he will also be angry and bitter toward the people who at one point sheltered them. Perhaps Morgoth's lies led him to believe that the rulers of Doriath could have done more to protect Turin and Nienor and so not only are Hurin's children dead but they died because Thingol and Melian failed to do enough to prevent it. Potraying the rulers of Doriath in a bad light therefore is not about unleashing Hurin on them as weapon (what could he hope to do to them?) but about compounding his grief over the loss of his children.

(2) I also do not think that Morgoth foresaw the indirect role that Hurin would play in Doriath's destruction. Raynor earlier mentioned that the foresight of the Valar is based on their knowledge of the music and alludes to this passage from Of the Silmarils concerning Morgoth's knowledge of Men - "Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do? Fetching Nauglamir, the gift of which is connected to Doriath's ruin, sounds like Hurin's idea to me. I don't know of any passage that suggests that it isn't. And if Morgoth is not involved with the retrieval of the necklace then I don't think that he can be said to have used Hurin to further the destruction of Doriath.

[Macalaure]

Unhappy was the lot of Húrin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Húrin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The way I read this, Morgoth had indeed only a very general aim when he released Húrin. But, since he cast the worst light on Thingol and Melian, because he hated and feared them, it would be quite reasonable for him to assume that, among all realms, Húrin might do his greatest harm to Doriath.

I, too, can hardly believe that Morgoth planned the whole Nauglamír incident. But that does not mean that the release of Húrin has not been done in order to, among other things, further the destruction of Doriath. As has been said before, Morgoth's ultimate goal was to destroy everything, and so, everything he did was meant to further this. Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it. There was no real long-term plan in what he did, but the intention is more important, I think.

[Morwen]

In LotR there is a passage where Gollum observes that Sauron hated Isildur's city, to which Frodo replies "What does he not hate?" One can easily ask the same of Sauron's predecessor. Doubtless Morgoth wanted Doriath destroyed. I just don't see that as his reason for releasing Hurin. If we are talking about the destruction of Gondolin, that I can see. After all, Morgoth had attempted in vain to get Hurin to divulge the location of that city. Having failed to daunt Hurin into giving him that info, Morgoth releases him (new tactic) and Hurin then unwittingly does what he resisted doing for close to three decades: he gives the Dark Lord a clue as to Gondolin's location. So for me there is better link between the release of Hurin and Morgoth's plans to find and destroy Gondolin than there is between releasing him as a way of somehow furthering the destruction of Doriath.

Originally posted by Macalaure
Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it.

The rift between Elves and Men (apart from the three Houses of the Edain) had already been achieved by the treachery of Ulfang and co in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Could Hurin, angry and insulting, have widened the rift to include the Edain (or at least the remnants of the Houses)? What could he have done, one man against a powerful Elf Kingdom? Was Morgoth hoping that Hurin's anger all by itself could change Thingol's evolved opinion of Men? If that is what Morgoth was aiming for then it would underline his inability to grasp the concept of pity and his underestimation of the power of Melian. It is pity that restrains Thingol's wrath when Hurin appears in Doriath speaking his "wild and bitter words". It is in Menegroth "defended still by the Girdle of Melian" that Hurin is able to see the truth concerning what has happened to him and his family.
That said, for me Hurin's visit to Doriath has more to do with Hurin than Morgorth.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.

I believe you are overestimating him at that time. The closer we get to the end of the first age, the more we find Melkor in a more fallen state. One of the very reasons why the valar attacked is that Melkor became weak in mind. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien comes close to equating evil with stupid (when discussing how Sauron could not understand Gandalf). He is described as consumed by hate and having no plan but a destruction of everything (including his own "creatures"); at times, Sauron achieves some of the things that Melkor "did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice". Although Melkor started very endowed, we really cannot discard the increasing negative effect of his malice upon all his gifts, his reason first and foremost.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by Rune
The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".

That is a point that you'll want to take up with William Cloud Hickli

Originally posted by William Cloud Hickli
And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention.

Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?

Yes, it's possible that Morgoth may have had such a plan, but from my reading of the text I have to ask "Is it likely?"

As for the Gondolin question I don't think it's coincidence that Morgoth, who knows or at least has good reason to suspect that Hurin knows the whereabouts of Gondolin, has him followed. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for Morgoth to assume that Hurin, alone and friendless, might possibly seek out aid from those in the Hidden Kingdom. I don't think that Hurin going to Gondolin is more than Morgoth hoped for. I think it is precisely what he did hope for.

Originally posted by Macalaure
As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.


It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).

(1) What trouble in Brethil are you referring to?

(2) I would have to think less of Thingol if one angry man is enough to change his view of an entire people, especially as Hurin at that point can't be said to be speaking for any of the Edain.

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

I'd like to avoid the whole Nauglamir argument that's going on, because I'm the chess amateur William Cloud Hickli mentioned before, and skip back to what the Dark Elf contributed to the conversation a while back.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think Carcharoth's fate was wound inextricably with the Silmaril, yet so was Huan the hound's doom. Carcharoth was bred by Morgoth to be Huan's bane; therefore, the passage referring to Carcaroth's fate has the further inference of meeting Huan at last in mortal combat. Breaking the Girdle of Melian was due to the Silmaril, and Carcharoth's fate was to meet Huan in Doriath.

One also has to wonder about Melian's awareness of these things. If it were fate for Carcharoth to pass the Girdle, would she have precognition of it: i.e. was it impossible for her to stop it, because she knew it would happen no matter what? She predicted that Beren would arrive in Doriath, so he was not hindered when he arrived, alone and unintentionally trespassing. Much the same, she might have known that Carcharoth was heading into Doriath, but (look out! a digression!) like Beren, he was unwitting in his trespass, and didn't need to be hindered, and wasn't directly attacking the kingdom.
That ties into something Rikae said earlier:

Originally Posted by Rikae

However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth. I think that has quite a lot to do with Beren and Carcharoth (not to draw too many parallels between the two) unwittingly wandering into Doriath, without knowing specifically that they had crossed the Girdle of Melian. They were alone and, for the most part, unarmed. Now if Morgoth, on the other hand, had gathered all his forces and directly attacked Doriath, Melian's Girdle would have been strengthened for war, and she could have held back at least some of Morgoth's forces. It wasn't just one lone Man or Wolf wandering in through the mists.
It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.