Morgoth and Doriath - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 07-11-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?

Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.

And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.

Morwen · 07-11-2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:
"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?

Quote:

Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.

How would hyperintelligence allow Morgoth to deduce that Hurin's visit would be to Doriath's detriment? It doesn't inevitably follow that because Hurin visited Doriath that it would somehow be ruined.

Quote:

And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.

If it is your contention that the bringing of the Nauglamir is not properly part of the story, then Hurin's contribution to Doriath's destruction moves from being indirect to non existent.

William Cloud Hicklin · 07-11-2007, 08:36 PM

Oh, come on. It was always part of the story that Hurin brought the hoard of Nargothrond, from which the Nauglamir was made- cursed by the dragon, by Mim, and by Hurin himself.

How could Morgoth see that Hurin would bring evil with him within the Girdle? Because that's how Tolkien's moral universe works. The taint of Melkorism is rather like a virus- see Aldarion and Erendis. Morgoth's seeds and lies take root and grow. Hurin would do evil, or precipitate it, because he was by now an evil creature: Morgoth had made him that way. His actions in Brethil make that perfectly clear. Even a non-hyperintelligent being could see that Hurin's approach to Thingol wouldn't be all warm and fuzzy. And if you accept the 1977 text as authoritative, then Melian's 'healing' necessarily implies that Hurin needed to be healed of something.

Morwen · 07-11-2007, 09:15 PM

As I stated earlier, I don't regard Hurin's presence in Doriath as the sine qua non of its destruction. Doriath's doom arises through its connection with the Silmaril. If we leave aside the question of the Nauglamir, I don't see how anything that Hurin does or says has any bearing on Doriath's eventual fate and his 'taint' is therefore is irrelevant.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 07-11-2007, 10:34 PM

hmmm Doriath might have fallen anyways. . .probably would have actually, but we do not know.

The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".

Macalaure · 07-12-2007, 03:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Morwen

Doubtless Morgoth wanted Doriath destroyed. I just don't see that as his reason for releasing Hurin. If we are talking about the destruction of Gondolin, that I can see.

Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?

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Originally Posted by Morwen

Could Hurin, angry and insulting, have widened the rift to include the Edain (or at least the remnants of the Houses)? What could he have done, one man against a powerful Elf Kingdom? Was Morgoth hoping that Hurin's anger all by itself could change Thingol's evolved opinion of Men?

As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.

It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).

07-11-2007, 09:15 PM	#4
Morwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 274	As I stated earlier, I don't regard Hurin's presence in Doriath as the sine qua non of its destruction. Doriath's doom arises through its connection with the Silmaril. If we leave aside the question of the Nauglamir, I don't see how anything that Hurin does or says has any bearing on Doriath's eventual fate and his 'taint' is therefore is irrelevant. __________________ He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said

07-11-2007, 08:36 PM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Oh, come on. It was always part of the story that Hurin brought the hoard of Nargothrond, from which the Nauglamir was made- cursed by the dragon, by Mim, and by Hurin himself. How could Morgoth see that Hurin would bring evil with him within the Girdle? Because that's how Tolkien's moral universe works. The taint of Melkorism is rather like a virus- see Aldarion and Erendis. Morgoth's seeds and lies take root and grow. Hurin would do evil, or precipitate it, because he was by now an evil creature: Morgoth had made him that way. His actions in Brethil make that perfectly clear. Even a non-hyperintelligent being could see that Hurin's approach to Thingol wouldn't be all warm and fuzzy. And if you accept the 1977 text as authoritative, then Melian's 'healing' necessarily implies that Hurin needed to be healed of something.