The Hobbit in July 2007?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

The reasoning seems to be that showing characters smoking will encourage impressionable movie goers to smoke. Seems to me that the lawyers could have a field day with this. Isn't it an admission that, despite all their earlier protests, movies do inspire copycat behaviour?

Is alcohol consumption to follow - no beer quaffing Hobbits in case it leads to alcoholism among movie goers?. No six meals a day for Hobbits in case it encourages over-eating & exacerbates the obesity problem?

Hmmm...I don't know about your TV viewing habits over in Britain, but when I was young we used to watch the Three Stooges (Larry, Moe and Curly) every day after school. To date I have never hit anyone in the head with a hammer, but then again I never considered mass-murder after listening to Black Sabbath albums, or hanging myself after seeing Alice Cooper in concert at age twelve (although I must admit that seeing Alice as a preteen was the motivating factor in purchasing my first guitar; therefore, Alice Cooper promotes music literacy ).

As I inferred earlier, I think the whole anti-smoking campaign in movies is more of a publicity stunt (a smoke screen?) rather than a true philanthropic effort to curb dangerous habits of impressionable youth. Why are they not more concerned about our society's seeming desensitization to excessive violence or the deluge of negative images dumped on young girls in order to rush them on the road to promiscuity? I am far more concerned for my daughter regarding 'Bratz Dolls' (which are banned from my house) than smoking in movies.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I don't know if anyone remembers but when Fellowship first came out, Michael Martinez wrote a heartfelt essay "protesting" the depiction of smoking in the movie. He had recently had a relative die from lung cancer and felt it should not have been included. I found that fairly surprising from someone who does have an idea of the context in which Tolkien wrote and the role of pipeweed in the Shire.

Disney is a private company and has the right to lay down whatever restrictions they want on their own products. However, I don't have to like it or agree with a policy like this. I say that as someone who has lost two close relatives to lung cancer as a result of smoking. If I'm uncomfortable with something in a movie, I'd prefer to exercise my personal discretion as a parent to steer my kids away from what our family finds "objectionable".

I used to be in charge of book selection in a large public library system so I know this whole business is a terribly slippery slope. One person would object to "X" and another to "Y" and, before you know it, you've laid down rules that gut out the heart of a piece of literature or art. But, at the rate we're going in getting The Hobbit onto the screen (whether or not you like that idea), it seems as if we aren't going to have to worry about specifics like this for a while!

[Lalwendë]

I think (but I don't know - he shall have to verify it ) davem would agree with me that more or less, films, books and so forth are not quite the sinister influence some think they are. My personal view is that if someone is stupid enough to think smoking is cool because someone in a Hollywood film does it then it's Darwinism working at it's finest The irony of course is that Hollywood claims films are not a bad influence and so it can get away with showing kids indulging in violent things (Home Alone - a kid messing with a shotgun for example), yet it seems to think they are at the same time a bad influence and we must not show the evil cancer sticks. So which is it, Hollywood?

[davem]

OF course its annoying. And of course it starts with something 'bad', but it never ends there. I'm reminded of Gandalf's statement that he would take the Ring in order to do good, but that it wouldn't stop there...

If smoking is banned in the movie in case it encourages children & teens to start smoking, what about the books?

Its as if smoking has crossed over from being potentially dangerous to being immoral. I wonder how long smoking in the books will be acceptable? TH is a 'children's' book, but it seems an increasingly non-PC one. There's nothing in the book(s) that implies that smoking is wrong or 'dangerous'. Bilbo smokes & lives to over a hundred, & so do many of the other Hobbits & children read this! I wonder whether there are parents out there who do warn their children about the smoking in the book? I suspect that if TH was offered to a publisher today the smoking would not make it past the editor - it would be a case of 'If you want us to publish this the pipeweed will have to go!'

If smoking is not shown in the movie that's a clear statement about smoking in the book.

To me this is a bigger issue than whether smoking is dangerous & should be discouraged. Its about Hobbits as a people. Hobbits smoke, drink, eat too much & spend a lot of their time doing not very much - like going for long walks. They're a very laid back type of folk - adventures are 'nasty' & inconvenient because they 'make you late for dinner'.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I agree with you, davem. Smoking is part of Middle-earth, whether it's Gandalf, Aragorn, or the Hornblowers doing it. I remember that Michael Martinez raised a big stink about the smoking in the first two films in his initial reviews of them. I can certainly understand where people like him are coming from, and I do agree that smoking should not be portrayed in a positive light in most films. The Lord of the Rings, however, is not most films.

[davem]

My hero....

Of course numberless Americans smoke numberless cigars; a great many others eat cigars, which seems to me a more occult pleasure. But there does exist an extraordinary idea that ethics are involved in some way; and many who smoke really disapprove of smoking. I remember once receiving two American interviewers on the same afternoon; there was a box of cigars in front of me and I offered one to each in turn. Their reaction (as they would probably call it) was very curious to watch. The first journalist stiffened suddenly and silently declined in a very cold voice. He could not have conveyed more plainly that I had attempted to corrupt an honorable man with a foul and infamous indulgence; as if I were the Old Man of the Mountain offering him hashish that would turn him into an assassin. The second reaction was even more remarkable. The second journalist first looked doubtful; then looked sly; then seemed to glance about him nervously, as if wondering whether we were alone, and then said with a sort of crestfallen and covert smile: “Well, Mr. Chesterton, I’m afraid I have the habit.”

As I also have the habit, and have never been able to imagine how it could be connected with morality or immorality, I confess that I plunged with him deeply into an immoral life. In the course of our conversation, I found he was otherwise perfectly sane. He was quite intelligent about economics or architecture; but his moral sense seemed to have entirely disappeared. He really thought it rather wicked to smoke. He had “no standard of abstract right or wrong”; in him it was not merely moribund; it was apparently dead. But anyhow, that is the point and that is the test. Nobody who has an abstract standard of right and wrong can possibly think it wrong to smoke a cigar.

—G.K. Chesterton

from “On American Morals”

[Lalwendë]

It'd be interesting to see if there was any smoking in the Harry Potter books. One of the things about those which intrigues me is how often the underage witches and wizards wander into the local pubs of Hogsmeade and have a Butterbeer. No wonder they're always duelling with Draco Malfoy, they're all tanked up on alcopops. I suppose this refelcts contemporary British society where if you do not drink then you are viewed as somehow suspect, yet if you manage the herculean task of ten pints of Stella or two bottles of Pinot Grigio in a night and manage to come to work next day you are hailed as an all-conquering hero. I can't even count the number of women I work with who turn psychotic if someone smokes near them, exist on a lettuce leaf at lunchtime and yet have slightly yellow, hollow faces because they drink a whole bottle of wine every evening. Bizarre.

If anyone in modern society today behaved like a Hobbit they'd have the thought police onto them in no time.

It might be unpalatable to many but Tolkien's pleasures in life included good beer, stodgy food and smoking. He then gave these same indulgences to his happiest, jolliest race of people - and what's more, made them quite evangelistic about these joys. Gloriously un-PC.

Of course, Tolkien used to even smoke his pipe when riding his bike around Oxford. That's how keen he was on the habit.