The Hobbit in July 2007?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkien was hooked on nicotine. Bottom line, he was an addict. His substance was legal, but he was still an addict.

No he wasn't. He was a smoker. There's no evidence to believe that he couldn't have stopped at any time he wanted. Of course as he was perfectly happy with his pipe I can't see that there was any problem. He managed to give up his car when he saw the damage the infernal combustion engine was doing to the environment & in my experience as a non driver, that is the real addiction. Fumes far, far more dangerous than any amount of second hand smoke, far more destructive to to humans & the environment, but can drivers give up their addiction to the car? Smoking is an innocent pleasure in comparison to the evils of the car, & the motor industry has Hollywood equally in its pocket - if not more so (& heaven knows how much profit Smith & Wesson made out of the Dirty Harry movies).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

No he wasn't. He was a smoker. There's no evidence to believe that he couldn't have stopped at any time he wanted. Of course as he was perfectly happy with his pipe I can't see that there was any problem. He managed to give up his car when he saw the damage the infernal combustion engine was doing to the environment & in my experience as a non driver, that is the real addiction. Fumes far, far more dangerous than any amount of second hand smoke, far more destructive to to humans & the environment, but can drivers give up their addiction to the car? Smoking is an innocent pleasure in comparison to the evils of the car, & the motor industry has Hollywood equally in its pocket - if not more so (& heaven knows how much profit Smith & Wesson made out of the Dirty Harry movies).

Other than using a Palantir to peer into into Tolkien's mind--and the past--we do have some evidence that nicotine is a highly addictive drug that causes most people who attempt to give up smoking to go into withdrawal. Calling Tolkien simply a smoker is a fancy bit of denial--a common trait among addicts. Most smokers are addicted.

And Tolkien gave up driving a car when he realised what a hazard he was as a driver. He didn't stop using automobiles and would hire drivers to take him and his family on excursions, medical visits, etc.

Frankly, I think that when/if The Hobbit is ever shown on the big screen, it ought to come with trailers and adverts about lung diseases. Maybe even Gandalf coughing up and gasping for breath and reminding people that ships sailing west for healing were only available to Frodo and Gimli. Pictures of smokers' lungs would be pretty appetising beside those hobbit second breakfasts, too.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Other than using a Palantir to peer into into Tolkien's mind--and the past--we do have some evidence that nicotine is a highly addictive drug that causes most people who attempt to give up smoking to go into withdrawal. Calling Tolkien simply a smoker is a fancy bit of denial--a common trait among addicts. Most smokers are addicted.

Yes, well, as Chesterton pointed out in the excerpt I gave earlier:

As I also have the habit, and have never been able to imagine how it could be connected with morality or immorality, I confess that I plunged with him deeply into an immoral life. In the course of our conversation, I found he was otherwise perfectly sane. He was quite intelligent about economics or architecture; but his moral sense seemed to have entirely disappeared. He really thought it rather wicked to smoke. He had “no standard of abstract right or wrong”; in him it was not merely moribund; it was apparently dead. But anyhow, that is the point and that is the test. Nobody who has an abstract standard of right and wrong can possibly think it wrong to smoke a cigar.

, its a habit, but its not a sin. People do lots of things which are bad for them. Smoking is also a very relaxing & quite pleasurable indulgence - & I note in passing that the guy who invented jogging died from a heart attack while out jogging. I further note in passing that 100% of non smokers die.

Frankly, I think that when/if The Hobbit is ever shown on the big screen, it ought to come with trailers and adverts about lung diseases. Maybe even Gandalf coughing up and gasping for breath and reminding people that ships sailing west for healing were only available to Frodo and Gimli. Pictures of smokers' lungs would be pretty appetising beside those hobbit second breakfasts, too.

And surely there should be trailers & adverts depicting the horrors of alcoholism in movies where beer is drunk, the horrors of road accidents where cars appear in movies, of aircrashes when planes appear, of the horrors of global warming whenever a movie has scenes of cows (the methane produced by cattle apparently being one of the greatest contributors to climate change), of the Inquisition whenever a movie has a priest appearing in it. And let's not miss the chance to show trailers about Aids when two people of the opposite sex appear on screen.

Or we could just leave folk to their indulgences & let them take their chances. Personally, I accepted that one day something is going to finish me off, whatever I do, or don't do. I don't lecture others as to what they should or shouldn't do - I' like to think I'm quite 'Hobbitish' in that way. If it shouldn't be shown on films without anti smoking adverts being shown I can't see that it should be permitted in the books with similar warnings (though I expect to find such warnings will appear fairly soon, to be followed, no doubt, by the smoking references being edited out, along with the mentions of over-eating, the consumption of beer & all mention of pubs, the pipeweed to be replaced by healthy snacks of carrot sticks & celery, & the pubs by gyms.) Hobbits smoke too much, drink too much & eat too much & they don't jog or preach.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Yes, well, as Chesterton pointed out in the excerpt I gave earlier:

, its a habit, but its not a sin. People do lots of things which are bad for them. Smoking is also a very relaxing & quite pleasurable indulgence - & I note in passing that the guy who invented jogging died from a heart attack while out jogging. I further note in passing that 100% of non smokers die.

I am not quite certain why you keep including that Chesterton quote in the conversation, as he was neither an authority on the subject, nor entirely subjective. The man died in 1936 and obviously had no conception of the addictive nature of nicotine or the proven health risks. Needless to say, cocaine, morphine and heroin were legal in his lifetime (not even listed as controlled substances until WWI). G.K. might have had a Coca-Cola or two prior to 1903 laced with cocaine (an advertised ingredient up to that point).

I think that smoking for most long-term users is no longer a habit or a 'pleasurable indulgence' (that would include myself and my pack-a-day jones). I cannot merely smoke a single cigarette in a day without significant discomfort; whereas, I can drink several porters in a single sitting and go for weeks without another (which would be disconcerting and unnecessary perhaps, but quite doable).

However, that being said I do not believe that removing pipe-smoking from The Hobbit or adding warnings is warranted as the story takes place in another age altogether. I despise attempts to homogenize literature or film due to the expedience of political correctness, particularly in the film industry which seems to be picking and choosing its ethics, which in itself is unethical.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think that smoking for most long-term users is no longer a habit or a 'pleasurable indulgence' (that would include myself and my pack-a-day jones). I cannot merely smoke a single cigarette in a day without significant discomfort; whereas, I can drink several porters in a single sitting and go for weeks without another (which would be disconcerting and unnecessary perhaps, but quite doable).

But I can. I smoke the odd cheap cigar as & when but can go for days, even weeks, without - & I was the when I smoked a pipe. Many people, unlike you, cannot go for weeks (even hours) without a drink. But this is not the point - the point is the one Chesterton made - smoking is being treated as a 'sin' not simply a potentially 'dangerous' activity. I've seen people in cars waiting at traffic lights with their engines running wafting away cigarette smoke from passing smokers - all the while churning out poison from their exhaust pipes, & mother's pushing their children along the street at rush hour with their faces at the same height as those exhaust pipes getting angry because someone fifty feet away is smoking a cig. Banning smoking from movies, or forcing movie goers to watch anti-smoking adverts because some smokers die from their habit (& most of them die in their 70's, 80's & 90's when they were going to die of something anyway) is as irrational as banning cars or inflicting dangerous driving adverts showing bodies scattered over the highway because cars kill people.

I'm not advocating smoking at all. Its none of my business whether or not people indulge. Yes, its an indulgence that may well kill you before something else does - but that's all one can say for it - 'cos something is going to kill you.

[Lalwendë]

In modern times, things are only labelled as 'sins' as it makes it that much easier for Governments to make lots of tax out of them. That's why sex is no longer a sin but eating lovely greasy chips out of newspaper or smoking a ciggie is. You cannot tax the former but you can tax the latter. And what's more you can get all self-righteous about it too.

There is no tax in Middle-earth so smoking, drinking ale or eating lard is no sin.

The day they put health warnings on films at the cinema will be the day I start looking round for the poster of Big Brother that I've got to salute. I note that it was the evil venture capitalist/despot that was Saruman who also carted off all the pipeweed in The Shire.

[Sauron the White]

from Bethberry

Actually, I'm waiting to hear that the casting for The Hobbit will be colour blind. I can just imagine the dilemma between choosing an Asian actor for Bilbo and Blacks for the dwarves, or a Black actor for Bilbo and Asian ones for the dwarves. Or maybe they will make all the dwarves female actors, but of course we'd never know it. I'm sure that if they made Smaug green, leprecauns would object, so I suspect that is out for Smaug.

21st century political correctness has already tainted the dramatic presentation of JRRT's works. In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.
Not only was it a bit jarring to the eye but the role was poorly written and not one of the better aspects of the play. I saw the same actor a few weeks ago in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD and he was very good as Tom Robinson.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That's why sex is no longer a sin but eating lovely greasy chips out of newspaper or smoking a ciggie is. You cannot tax the former but you can tax the latter. And what's more you can get all self-righteous about it too.

I suppose that is why some countries have opted to legalise houses of prostitution. Would that be a Value Added Tax? What surcharges would apply? A bit difficult for tourists to carry any goods home and then claim a rebate though.

Originally Posted by Lal

I note that it was the evil venture capitalist/despot that was Saruman who also carted off all the pipeweed in The Shire.

I believe that in capitalist terms that would be a cartel, no? Or would it be a monopoly? I can never tell the difference between one which is supposed to be acceptable and one which is a no-no. And then there are non-competes, which are the blackest things of all apparently.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.

I think the producers missed a Great White Moment there. I was expecting them to cast Inuit actors as the hobbits. Think how that would have increased the Canadian Content, to say nothing about the significant thematic implications.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

, its a habit, but its not a sin.

I know. It's an absolute sin the way people take things in directions never meant. But if you want to talk about sin, I suppose you could explain if you mean smoking is not a venal sin or not a mortal sin. Myself, I've been talking about physiological addiction, so on that ground smoking would not be a sin, as it is no longer a voluntary act.

Originally Posted by davem

And surely there should be trailers & adverts depicting the horrors of alcoholism in movies where beer is drunk, the horrors of road accidents where cars appear in movies, of aircrashes when planes appear, of the horrors of global warming whenever a movie has scenes of cows (the methane produced by cattle apparently being one of the greatest contributors to climate change), of the Inquisition whenever a movie has a priest appearing in it. And let's not miss the chance to show trailers about Aids when two people of the opposite sex appear on screen.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

However, that being said I do not believe that removing pipe-smoking from The Hobbit or adding warnings is warranted as the story takes place in another age altogether. I despise attempts to homogenize literature or film due to the expedience of political correctness, particularly in the film industry which seems to be picking and choosing its ethics, which in itself is unethical.

Actually, I'm waiting to hear that the casting for The Hobbit will be colour blind. I can just imagine the dilemma between choosing an Asian actor for Bilbo and Blacks for the dwarves, or a Black actor for Bilbo and Asian ones for the dwarves. Or maybe they will make all the dwarves female actors, but of course we'd never know it. I'm sure that if they made Smaug green, leprecauns would object, so I suspect that is out for Smaug.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Actually, I'm waiting to hear that the casting for The Hobbit will be colour blind. I can just imagine the dilemma between choosing an Asian actor for Bilbo and Blacks for the dwarves, or a Black actor for Bilbo and Asian ones for the dwarves. Or maybe they will make all the dwarves female actors, but of course we'd never it. I'm sure that if they made Smaug green, leprecauns would object, so I suspect that is out for Smaug.

Perhaps they could get Morgan Freeman to be Gandalf. He's always cast as the wise old black guy (excuse me, African-American gentleman) in films. I could well imagine James Earl Jones as the voice of Smaug. Jackie Chan as Bilbo? It would be a hoot to hear him say the line "Thag you bery buch".