The Witch King versus . . . Elrond? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hammerhand · 08-10-2007, 09:11 AM

Because of the amount of conflicting arguments i think you'd struggle to make a list as such. On the one you've made, i think Tom Bombadil would be suited to a place in the top few, i've read a number of interesting debates about his true identity. I'll draw a list of what i think, using the characters you have. Even though, Morgoth doesn't really come into LotR. I really like Boromir88's additional thought of Cirdan; i think maybe Gil-Galad and Celeborn are also worth noting.

1. Morgoth
2. Sauron
3. Tom Bombadil
4. Gandalf the White
5. Saruman the White
6. Glorfindel
7. Elrond
8. Galadriel
9. Elendil
10. Isildur
11. Witch King

and with the additional characters:

1. Morgoth
2. Sauron
3. Tom Bombadil
4. Gandalf the White
5. Saruman the White
6. Glorfindel
7. Elrond
8. Gil-Galad
9. Galadriel
10. Cirdan
11. Celeborn
12. Elendil
13. Isildur
14. Witch King

Raynor · 08-10-2007, 02:03 PM

Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First".

Hammerhand · 08-10-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First".

Well, Elendil was present during the reign of Sauron and the rings... even if for a short while (Last Alliance...) Morgoth on the other hand, as Raynor and i have stated, is somewhat seperate from the third age.

08-15-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

Well, Elendil was present during the reign of Sauron and the rings... even if for a short while (Last Alliance...) Morgoth on the other hand, as Raynor and i have stated, is somewhat seperate from the third age.

Morgoth was still referenced by Gandalf in the LOTR, & it would not seem right to leave out arguably the greatest being (at least on paper) ever to have set foot in ME.

Hammerhand · 08-15-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

Morgoth was still referenced by Gandalf in the LOTR, & it would not seem right to leave out arguably the greatest being (at least on paper) ever to have set foot in ME.

He didn't have an active role in the LoTR, banished from the world as he is - so a mere reference cannot count. Besides, i believe it would seem right to disclude him because of the amount of other powerful characters from past ages that are not counted for. If it covered all the beings of all the ages, i think it is safe to say the list would be totally different.

Knight of Gondor · 08-21-2007, 03:46 PM

I agree with the corrections of my fellow BDers, but I am wondering what exactly the definition of "powerful" is. Do we mean powerful, as in intrinsic strength of will and spirit? Do we mean powerful as in the spiritual/supernatural powers of those less mortal?

I ask because Elendil and Isildur are both mentioned, yet both of these are men. One of the only examples (in my mind, anyway) of either of these two exhibiting any power is Isildur cursing the folk of the mountain never to rest until they fulfilled their Oath. In which case, Aragorn must certainly be judged more hardy, than Isildur at least, because he refused the Ring, and held his companions to the Paths of the Dead, and commanded their allegiance to fulfill their oaths.

Knight of Gondor · 08-23-2007, 09:31 AM

Question: Is Tom Bombadil greater than Gandalf?

I note that Gandalf seems to know much of him, speaks of him almost as a brother. When he leaves the hobbits, it is to go have a conversation with him, and, almost as a journey's-end lament, says that Tom was a moss-gatherer, whilst Gandalf was a stone doomed to roll. This indicates that Gandalf had much prior knowledge of Bombadil.

I base my question also on the concept of danger. Gandalf says that he is "more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." Depending on how much power one reads into the concept of how great a threat one can pose to one's enemies, this indicates that Gandalf is greater in might, even than Iarwain.

08-10-2007, 09:11 AM	#1
Hammerhand Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Dark side of the moon. Posts: 81	Because of the amount of conflicting arguments i think you'd struggle to make a list as such. On the one you've made, i think Tom Bombadil would be suited to a place in the top few, i've read a number of interesting debates about his true identity. I'll draw a list of what i think, using the characters you have. Even though, Morgoth doesn't really come into LotR. I really like Boromir88's additional thought of Cirdan; i think maybe Gil-Galad and Celeborn are also worth noting. 1. Morgoth 2. Sauron 3. Tom Bombadil 4. Gandalf the White 5. Saruman the White 6. Glorfindel 7. Elrond 8. Galadriel 9. Elendil 10. Isildur 11. Witch King and with the additional characters: 1. Morgoth 2. Sauron 3. Tom Bombadil 4. Gandalf the White 5. Saruman the White 6. Glorfindel 7. Elrond 8. Gil-Galad 9. Galadriel 10. Cirdan 11. Celeborn 12. Elendil 13. Isildur 14. Witch King __________________ A great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.

08-10-2007, 02:03 PM	#2
Raynor Eagle of the Star Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sarmisegethuza Posts: 1,058	Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First". __________________ "May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."

08-21-2007, 03:46 PM	#6
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	I agree with the corrections of my fellow BDers, but I am wondering what exactly the definition of "powerful" is. Do we mean powerful, as in intrinsic strength of will and spirit? Do we mean powerful as in the spiritual/supernatural powers of those less mortal? I ask because Elendil and Isildur are both mentioned, yet both of these are men. One of the only examples (in my mind, anyway) of either of these two exhibiting any power is Isildur cursing the folk of the mountain never to rest until they fulfilled their Oath. In which case, Aragorn must certainly be judged more hardy, than Isildur at least, because he refused the Ring, and held his companions to the Paths of the Dead, and commanded their allegiance to fulfill their oaths. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

08-23-2007, 09:31 AM	#7
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Question: Is Tom Bombadil greater than Gandalf? I note that Gandalf seems to know much of him, speaks of him almost as a brother. When he leaves the hobbits, it is to go have a conversation with him, and, almost as a journey's-end lament, says that Tom was a moss-gatherer, whilst Gandalf was a stone doomed to roll. This indicates that Gandalf had much prior knowledge of Bombadil. I base my question also on the concept of danger. Gandalf says that he is "more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." Depending on how much power one reads into the concept of how great a threat one can pose to one's enemies, this indicates that Gandalf is greater in might, even than Iarwain. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16