The Best Adaptions

[Folwren]

Shelob. And I'm not joking. She was perfect. A huge spider, ugly, bulbous, and scary. Her lair was filed with old webs and half eaten carcasses, skelatons, and other nasty stuff. She was cunning and evil - consider, she squeezed out silently above Frodo, snuck around above him and essentially stabbed him in the back...only she waited for him to turn around so she could get his chest. Then when Sam came, she attacked him viciously. She knocked the phial out of his hand and out of his reach once. And then when she finally got stabbed, it was because she was trying to smash Sam and (just like in the book) it was her weight and strength that forced the blade up into her stomach. And then she twitched and jerked horribly in pain and she retreated, shuddering and shivering, into a hole.

The head Uruk Hai after Ugluk is killed by Aragorn was pretty well adapted.

Regardless of Matthew's adamant disagreement, I really like Boromir in the movie. I like him a lot in the books, too. They were one character I don't think they ruined.

Eowyn was also very well adapted, save for the stew scene. *sigh* Oh well.

-- Folwren

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Regardless of Matthew's adamant disagreement, I really like Boromir in the movie. I like him a lot in the books, too. They were one character I don't think they ruined.

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however I am providing you with fact from Tolkien's own writing of the character in the books - the true authority - and the fact is that Boromir was wrongly portrayed from book to film in many aspects.

[Formendacil]

It's really interesting, Matt, watching you guys duke it out over the adaptation of Boromir's character. Reading your side of the argument, I'm finding myself inclined to agree with you, but reading between the lines I'd say you have a much higher estimation of Book-Boromir's character than I did.

It's interesting therefore, for me to note that while you see Movie-Boromir and you see a less-noble character than Book-Boromir, whereas I, who had a much lower estimation of Book-Boromir, found myself raising my estimation of him as a result of Movie-Boromir.

The lovely thing about reading books is the amount of imagination involved. I shaded my Boromir darker than your lordly Boromir, and so one ends up with completely different evaluations of the movie version.

So, while your argument--with the assistance of Movie-Boromir's groundwork--certainly leaves me with a higher, and justifiably so, estimation of the character of Boromir, I have to state that I always found him to be one of my favourite (in a true-to-the-book sense) adaptations to the film.

[Boromir88]

The lovely thing about reading books is the amount of imagination involved.~Formendacil

Excellent point and thats the creativeness of JRR Tolkien. We have one description, one paragraph, but are able to imagine/interpret it several different ways. As I think you can see from this thread all three of us have similar, yet different views of Boromir's character. And I don't think one of us is more 'right' than any other, as we all have good reasons for imagining Boromir the way we do. That's what a good book does, opens up the imagination, and supports several different perspectives.

And I know what happens with me, is when I get an idea into my head everything I find often seems to go to support my particular view...I'm a very biased person . That's where discussions like this really help me out and gets me seeing things a bit differently (even though I disagree and I still think I'm right. )

but Boromir was not best portrayed, not by a long shot.

I think I can agree with ya there...he wasn't the best portrayed simply because of that Osgiliath scene in the EE I think would be enough to show that he wasn't the best portrayed. I was just making an argument as to what I thought the movies got right about him.

How can you not consider apperance when you think of portrayal?

I do consider appearance, I just said I don't think too much into the 'appearance' part. As I did criticize Sam, Merry, and Pippin's appearance in the film, it would be a bit hypocritical for me then to say appearance doesn't matter in Boromir's portrayal.

I just don't consider it to be big deal when compared to traits and personality...as for me, thats what I think about the most when it comes to portrayal. Did Bean and Jackson get Boromir's mannerisms and personality correct? As its those things which 'bring the character to life on screen', for me, where somebody else may be different and place their emphasis on...say Boromir's appearance.

The scene does show their bond, but that does not make up for the rest of the atrocities of this scene.

I can think of them seperately as they try to show two different things about Boromir...one (the love between the two brothers) which is a good and accurate portrayal. The other his bowing to Daddy's wishes and going to Rivendell as an undercover agent (something completely wrong and I absolutely wish that scene never made it in). Since, I do think they are portraying two seperate things I don't think one makes the other 'worse,' nor does one make the other 'better.'

How was Boromir supposed to know a hideous monster dwelled within the water?

Interesting take on things, I think I saw it as childish because I imagined it as something Pippin would do...not the 'Captain-General' of Gondor. It seemed that Boromir acted more out of anger than anything else...it wasn't like he was skipping rocks to try to keep himself entertained:

'How I hate this foul pool!' He stooped and picked up a large stone he cast it far into the dark water.
[...]
'Why did you do that, Boromir? said Frodo. 'I hate this place, too, and I am afraid...I am afraid of the pool. Don't disturb it.'~A Journey in the Dark

I see it as rather childish because he's angry (maybe about having to go through Moria?) and so he just throws in a giant rock.

I still would not call it childish, anyway. If you do not want to go somewhere, you would say it, would you not? I would.

I would too, and Boromir being the leader that he was back in Gondor it's more understandable that he would be the one objecting, since he was used to the leadership role and getting things done his way. However, I think its the way he reacts (like he does at the Gates of Moria)...it seems a lot like frustration; and rather like a tantrem. Instead of just objecting and saying 'I don't think this is a good idea' I think it's just the way I read the remark...It reminds me of something I would do as a kid, when I didn't want to go some where...'If dad's not going I don't have to either!.'

And there are other times when he has some sarcastic remarks...who was it that said sarcasm was the lowest form of wit?

'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'~The Great River

I think this is both sarcastic and ironic. Sarcastic because Boromir doesn't agree with the path Aragorn wants to take and he's making some little jabs at it. Ironic because it is Boromir who arguably goes 'leaping down the falls' into 'the marshes.'

Is this a point on why you liked the movie Boromir? If so, why do you go on to explain yourself like you are defending the position? I never made any comment about the portrayal of the relationship of Boromir and Aragorn

Aye, sorry about that little confusion. I was saying that I liked that part of the movie with Boromir and I went on to explain growth in their relationship. Sorry, if I misunderstood but I thought you were saying Boromir acting 'paranoid' about Aragorn's claim was a wrong portrayal. Where I thought Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor, at least at first, was something that slightly unnerved/skeptical of Aragorn.

I do agree though that the movies do not show the 'lordly' quality of Boromir when it comes to this part. As the lordly Boromir of the books, eventhough he seemed to not like Aragorn's claim (at the Council), Frodo does say that he always treated Aragorn with respect. And Faramir points out that Boromir was that type of person...this I do agree is missing in the movies.

Look at Eomer's last words in that sentence..."he seemed to me". That is Eomer's opinion alone.

Yes, it was Eomer's opinion, but I think we can take it to be true. As Eomer says he had seen Boromir before, and in seeing Boromir he seemed more like the 'swift sons of Eorl' than those 'grave men in Gondor.' And eventhough Boromir was from Gondor, Eomer seperates him from the 'grave men of Gondor.' Also, I think his passion for Gondor (and for Gondor's victory) shows that he was not like the typical 'grave' men of his country.

but the fact that Boromir suppressed this lust until Galadriel tested him is saying a lot more of his character than all along having the Ring on his mind, which PJ's softer willed Boromir did

I concede, that's a good point.

What is your argument here? How can you disagree when you yourself say that Jackson chose not to show Boromir's shining moments?

My argument was eventhough Jackson did not have the warg scene, directing the boats through Sarn Gebir...etc Boromir's strength and what he does for the Fellowship I think still shows up in the movie. As I mentioned he is the one carrying Merry and Pippin up Caradhras, and he is the one to suggest to turn back. I haven't seen the extended fight of Moria in a long time, so I'll have to get back to you...I do just remember Aragorn coming in to save his arse. But anyway, I was saying eventhough Jackson doesn't add any of those scenes, I still think Boromir's greatest asset to the Fellowship...his strength/fighting prowess, shows up in other places during the movie.

Agreed, yet PJ still does not include Boromir's smile.

And I agree with you about the smile...I'll have to watch the scene again (as I haven't seen the movie in a little while). But I do vaguely remember Boromir expressing a certain hapiness/peacefulness before he dies. I'll take your word that he doesn't smile, but Aragorn does lay Boromir's sword in his hand and Boromir brings it to his chest...then I think Aragorn kisses him on the forehead, which I think all shows the final end of Boromir quite well. It speaks back to Aragorn and Gandalf's words about Boromir 'conquering in the end,' the 'final note' Aragorn and Boromir end on...there may have been tension along the road but they both realized they were brothers in the same conflict. The 'smile' shows Boromir's end is a peaceful one, and I think this is still shown in the movies...the smile probably would have been easier and better though.

Side note- they got away with countless arrows in the warriors of the movie "300".

That was so the famous line 'Then we'll fight in the shade' makes sense.

So, now that I look at it, I think the main disagreement comes with just how we think of 'portrayal.' Particularly around Boromir's death scene. Eventhough if Jackson alters the scene and changes it, I think the message is still there. I get the same feeling watching it on screen as I did reading the books, Jackson just shows the 'final stand' differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument then that the way Jackson portrays the scene...although delivers the same feelings, it doesn't show Boromir's strength and bravery to the extent the books do with Boromir's death? Therefor, the portrayal, allthough isn't wrong, it's not as good as it could have been?

[MatthewM]

Formendacil, if I have given a higher air to the way you see Boromir, I am satisfied. And you're right- everyone sees Tolkien's world in their own way. Like Boromir88 said, that is part of what makes these books so amazing.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I just don't consider it to be big deal when compared to traits and personality...as for me, thats what I think about the most when it comes to portrayal. Did Bean and Jackson get Boromir's mannerisms and personality correct? As its those things which 'bring the character to life on screen', for me, where somebody else may be different and place their emphasis on...say Boromir's appearance.

I put a much higher emphasis on appearance, I always have. Personality and mannerisms are just as important to me...because for me if an actor is playing the part (from book to movie) well, yet fails to coincide with the book in appearance (and vice versa) I can't see the portrayal as authentic as some might.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I see it as rather childish because he's angry (maybe about having to go through Moria?) and so he just throws in a giant rock.

Hm, I actually forgot that Boromir says that before he throws the stone into the water. I suppose it was a bit childish then, yet I can understand his anger as he did not want to enter Moria, and the whole Company was backing some wizard who couldn't open a door, and who his father wasn't too sure of.

Speaking of childish, and personality and mannerisms, I seem to have forgotten one of the worst scenes PJ ever filmed concerning Boromir and his personality, and this scene is right up there in filth with the EE Osgiliath scene...I can't believe I forgot to mention it sooner. Now here is an example of why movie Boromir is childish, far more childish than anyone could say about book Boromir- Aragorn is sitting peacefully in a part of Rivendell, where there is a huge moral depicting the defeat of Sauron during the Second Age, when Isildur cut the Ring off Sauron's hand. Not far away stands a statue that holds the Shards of Narsil. Boromir enters, says nothing to Aragorn, actually picks up the broken hilt, traces his finger across it while talking to himself- "The blade that cut the Ring..." (while almost reinacting what happened), then cutting his finger on it by accident ("still sharp...") he finally notices that Aragorn has been staring him down. Boromir looks with fear at Aragorn, and concludes with "but no more than a broken hilt". With that, Boromir hastily puts the hilt back on its resting place, and it falls down and clangs an obnoxious noise. Boromir turns his head, looks at it- not giving a hoot less, and walks away.

Talk about childish...I rest my case in saying that this movie Boromir, in this scene especially, can not even compare to book Boromir. There is no lordliness, as we know, in Bean, and there is absolutely no kindliness in this scene. Instead there is complete disrespect to Boromir's own country (which we know would never have happened in the books) and complete disrespect to Boromir's character alone. In fact, this scene is so demoralizing to Boromir's character as is the Osgiliath scene that I do not even consider either of them to be portrayal's of Boromir- I can't even give them the credit of being PJ's Boromir in his more finer scenes.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would too, and Boromir being the leader that he was back in Gondor it's more understandable that he would be the one objecting, since he was used to the leadership role and getting things done his way. However, I think its the way he reacts (like he does at the Gates of Moria)...it seems a lot like frustration; and rather like a tantrem. Instead of just objecting and saying 'I don't think this is a good idea' I think it's just the way I read the remark...It reminds me of something I would do as a kid, when I didn't want to go some where...'If dad's not going I don't have to either!.'

I don't see any sort of tantrem in Boromir's words (concering the direction of the Nine Walkers after Moria), perhaps a bit of frustration because no one has really been listening to his opinion concerning where The Fellowship should go. I still can't see this disagreeing as childish, as he was so accustomed to giving orders and already weary from what he heard in Gondor (about Lorien)- but I'm sure everyone reads the remarks differently.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'~The Great River

I think this is both sarcastic and ironic. Sarcastic because Boromir doesn't agree with the path Aragorn wants to take and he's making some little jabs at it. Ironic because it is Boromir who arguably goes 'leaping down the falls' into 'the marshes.'

Nice catch, I love Boromir's sarcasm here. I've never picked up on that irony- again, nice catch.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aye, sorry about that little confusion. I was saying that I liked that part of the movie with Boromir and I went on to explain growth in their relationship. Sorry, if I misunderstood but I thought you were saying Boromir acting 'paranoid' about Aragorn's claim was a wrong portrayal.

A misunderstanding it was! No worries!

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, it was Eomer's opinion, but I think we can take it to be true. As Eomer says he had seen Boromir before, and in seeing Boromir he seemed more like the 'swift sons of Eorl' than those 'grave men in Gondor.' And eventhough Boromir was from Gondor, Eomer seperates him from the 'grave men of Gondor.' Also, I think his passion for Gondor (and for Gondor's victory) shows that he was not like the typical 'grave' men of his country.

I still think it's just Eomer's opinion, just because, like Boromir (to Gondor), Eomer was tremendously devoted to Rohan and I can see how he would push his patriotism of "the swift sons of Eorl" to one of the few Gondorians Eomer (most likely) knew- Gondor's greatest. I also see Eomer's words as a bit of a generalization- he's lumping all men of Gondor as grave, and all of Rohan swift. Obviously, there are grave men and swift men in both countries. I do agree of course with Eomer's praise of Boromir and his kind words about him, I just don't take his "more like to the swift sons of Eorl" speel seriously.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And I agree with you about the smile...I'll have to watch the scene again (as I haven't seen the movie in a little while). But I do vaguely remember Boromir expressing a certain hapiness/peacefulness before he dies. I'll take your word that he doesn't smile, but Aragorn does lay Boromir's sword in his hand and Boromir brings it to his chest...then I think Aragorn kisses him on the forehead, which I think all shows the final end of Boromir quite well.

The 'smile' shows Boromir's end is a peaceful one, and I think this is still shown in the movies...the smile probably would have been easier and better though

I'm pretty sure when movie Boromir says his last lines "I would have followed you..." he smiles a little bit, but it wasn't the same as I picture it in the book, one because the very last thing Boromir does in the book was smile, not say the line "my king". Yes quite knitpicky, I know, but very vital in my opinion. The smile is the resolution from Boromir's mistake and overwhelming pride he displayed while trying to wrestle the Ring from Frodo, and the smile is, in my opinion, what ties into one of the most beautiful lines in all of the book-

"But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars." - The Departure of Boromir

For me this confirms 100% that through his last defense of the hobbits, Boromir was forgiven, not only by himself, but by the higher powers of Middle-earth.

Like you said, in the movie they could have done it much better.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, now that I look at it, I think the main disagreement comes with just how we think of 'portrayal.' Particularly around Boromir's death scene. Eventhough if Jackson alters the scene and changes it, I think the message is still there. I get the same feeling watching it on screen as I did reading the books, Jackson just shows the 'final stand' differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument then that the way Jackson portrays the scene...although delivers the same feelings, it doesn't show Boromir's strength and bravery to the extent the books do with Boromir's death? Therefor, the portrayal, allthough isn't wrong, it's not as good as it could have been?

Exactly.

So, although we disagree on certain aspects, I think we agree on a lot as well. It has been good having this discussion!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

[Boromir88]

Matthew , the feeling is mutual.

Just one quick comment...I forgot about that scene in Rivendell where Boromir throws down Elendil - I thought he said 'no more than a broken heirloom' but sometimes I have trouble understanding Bean's accent...and I agree that was so childish it was way out of Boromir's character. Thanks for bringing that up as I completely forgot about that part.

As we see from the story, Boromir revered the sword of Elendil, and if he ever were to pick it up (which another thing is I have no idea who Elrond has it out for display for everyone to come and take a peek at ), he would never have tossed it on the ground and shown such childish disrespect for an extremely important heirloom in Gondor's history!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

Ahh just the characters he left out...
I guess that makes it so PJ couldn't ruin them.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

You forgot Bergil though...Since he is Beregond's son...