Lord of Gravity

[littlemanpoet]

The marring of Melkor is still in play. imho

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think if you ask for the answers of Arda, then it's clear from the Ainulindalë to me, as Elempi said: all the bad things come from Morgoth's marring, for example he was the one who created the unbearable cold and also the... (*interesting, now I had some sort of problem with memory, and could not think of what is the English word for the opposite of cold... but the word that immediately came to my mind, was the Elven word úre. So yup, that's it Interesting, by the way - the Prof would surely be happy if he heard about this, because he'd explain it so that's because I find the word úre suitable for naming that thing *) I imagine it the way that he could misuse any power of Valar, because originally

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

Which is the main point. Or more elaborated

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

Great might was given to him by Ilъvatar, and he was coeval with Manwë. In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny.

And we also know Morgoth was expert in twisting things as he wanted, and in making the "illusions" or "tricks", to make something appear differently, to make something look as if it came from Valar but it came from him, for example what I call the "Hunter-trick" to make the Elves be afraid of Oromë and thus disable the possibility of joining him:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Chapter 3

And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves, of which echoes are remembered still in the West, tell of the shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuiviénen, or would pass suddenly over the stars; and of the dark Rider upon his wild horse that pursued those that wandered to take them and devour them. Now Melkor greatly hated and feared the riding of Oromë, and either he sent indeed his dark servants as riders, or he set lying whispers abroad, for the purpose that the Quendi should shun Oromë, if ever they should meet.

So in conclusion, either the catastrophes come from Morgoth himself (when he's present) or are the continuing work of his marring (already "written" in the song).

[Mithalwen]

Osse and Uinen have reached that dangerous stage in their relationship... "The Seven Age itch"

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Only alatar would actually start a thread called "Lord of Gravity" WITHOUT tongue in cheek...

[radagastly]

If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?

These natural disasters are only disasters because people are around to witness (and suffer from) them.

From the Silmarillion:

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said, "Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath thought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth!

And they built lands, and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved, and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved, and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed, and Melkor spilled them, and naught might have peace or lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labor so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it.

A pretty violent, ongoing process, and yet:

For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective. They have nothing to do with the (ongoing) shaping of Arda, marred or unmarred. We simply find them in our way!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective. They have nothing to do with the (ongoing) shaping of Arda, marred or unmarred. We simply find them in our way!

Well, that's surely a good point. However, there is one thing - it's important to remember that Arda was supposed to be made for the Children to abide in it. I think part of the solution lays in what you hinted at earlier, that the Valar did not originally think of the Elves and Men coming in the world.

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.

(emphasise mine)
In other words, for example Aulë could have thought that an erupting volcano could be a nice thing to behold, but did not think of the possibility that it may harm anyone. However...

...however, I am sure that's not satisfactory explanation. First, even my example above is probably a little bit "out", since we know that Melkor created the "unbearable heat" and so on, so generally, I daresay that probably even then Valar did not originally create anything "harmful" by itself, that it all came through Melkor. Then, many beautiful things (like the snow etc) came out of originally evil intention; but not vice versa.

And concerning my volcano example, it was just an example - probably a bad one, by the way, because

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes; and he kindled great fires

So who knows if it's even a good example

Also, when Valar came down to Arda, they had still much, much work to do (and from that time comes what you, radagastly, mention in the second quote in your post above). The important thing is that they already knew that there were some Children coming - they knew it from the Vision, and they were technically making the whole World anew, just "by the lines" of the Music. Let's see:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar.

So, at that time they already knew that there will be some Children, and they surely tried to minimalise the danger for them. We are told that even in connection to Melkor:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

And [Melkor] feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.

There are two things I would conclude from this part:

1. Even Melkor wanted to (or pretended to want to) control the bad things he created. So it's I think safe to assume that the more the other Valar would want to calm down any harmful things they made, now that they knew that the World was made for the Children to live in, and not just for itself. (If ever the other Valar made such things, as I hinted at earlier, and also see below).
2. "That came to pass through him" - this sentence can mean two things. Either, Melkor wanted to control just the heat&cold HE created and if any other Vala made anything harmful, he did not care but wanted to undo just what he did. This would mean not just hot&cold, because I am sure Melkor made more "harmful" things than just the heat and cold and that the heat and cold are here named just as examples representing all Melkor's dischord. So, it would mean "Melkor wanted to undo what he did, but if any other Vala did anything bad as well, he left it to him". After all, why not. However, there is second explanation possible. If we put the main point in the words "that came through him", we could understand the sentence as "He wanted to undo all the evil things, that all came from him." I hope it's understandable - I mean that it could mean that all the evil came from Melkor and from no one else. This idea is supported by the fact that in the Music, everything went fine, and apart from Melkor, there was no dischord, even when the third theme (the one CONTAINING the idea of Children) came.

Then there is one last thing, which supports the idea that the natural disasters are "evil" in nature. As I said just now, there was no dischord between the Valar, apart from the one Melkor created. Even in the beginning. And here is my point. Yavanna, as we know, created kelvar and olvar (animals and plants), and as alatar already said in his first post, Yavanna would surely not be happy with the uprooted trees after a wind storm. But there was nothing like Yavanna's sadness at first in the song, so we can conclude that Manwë did not create any sort fo wind that would tear trees from their places. And the most important, and with that I am going to finish, is the animals. You said, radagastly, "If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?" It's appropriate to say that if there were no Children, the natural disasters won't need to be classificated as "bad" because they won't harm anyone. But let's not forget that even before the Children, there were the living plants and also animals who can be afraid of things, and you'd hear them screaming if suddenly a volcano erupted near them. In this point of view, the original, unmarred Arda without Melkor would have been unharmful to its denizens, be they the Children or just plants and animals.

[alatar]

Thanks for posting, everyone.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective.

A man and his son sit on their porch one stormy night, taking advantage of the breeze. It's dark, as it's night, but also because a storm is coming. The air is thick, the clouds heavy, dark and brooding. The breeze slows, stops, then picks up and becomes a wind. Rain like a sheet drops from the sky and suddenly the porch is walled in water. Booming can be heard in the distance; the sky lightens here and there. As the storm gets closer, the booming gets louder and the lightning more apparent. The rain slows somewhat but the storm worsens. The son looks up at his dad, frightened by the intensity of the crashing, cracking and booming, but his father gives him a knowing nod, assuring him that it's okay, though the dad himself isn't too sure. The father looks up at his neighbors' house, sitting lonely on top of the hill across the valley...

Crack! BOOM!

The house up on top of the hill is no more. The fire now there is hard to see as the afterimage of the lightning bolt hitting the hilltop is still etched on both father's and son's eyes. When they recover from the shock, the son looks up at his dad, the question his face apparent.

***

How does dad reply? Would it be dependent on what is assumed to be the cause of the lightning? And so:

• Greek citizen, 435 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Mighty Zeus, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something negative about Zeus' hair."
• Roman citizen, 26 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Juppiter Optimus Maximus Soter, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Jupiter looked a lot like Zeus.'"
• Rohirrim peasant, Third Age, Peter Jackson's world. "Son, those people must have angered Saruman, who smote them with his thunderbolt, which is a newly acquired ability that he uses very infrequently like his purported fireball spell. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Curse you Saruman! May you fall upon a spikey wheel of your own making!'"
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, those people must have angered God, who removed his mantle of protection from them. Think that they didn't believe in the God that we know."
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, our God works in mysterious ways and we are to learn from this."
• Some religious or not person, present day. "Son, though I'm not sure exactly why lightning struck that house, but maybe it's because the house was higher up on the hill and lightning tends to favor such elevated things. Such things are infrequent, but can happen.
• Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda. "Son, _______."

What does the person living in today's Arda say to his son? Was it Melkor, Melkor's legacy, part of Eru's plan, Manwe, etc?

And note that I don't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

• Greek citizen, 435 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Mighty Zeus, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something negative about Zeus' hair."
• Roman citizen, 26 BCE. "Son, those people must have angered Juppiter Optimus Maximus Soter, who smote them with his thunderbolt. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Jupiter looked a lot like Zeus.'"
• Rohirrim peasant, Third Age, Peter Jackson's world. "Son, those people must have angered Saruman, who smote them with his thunderbolt, which is a newly acquired ability that he uses very infrequently like his purported fireball spell. Think that I heard them the other day saying something like 'Curse you Saruman! May you fall upon a spikey wheel of your own making!'"
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, those people must have angered God, who removed his mantle of protection from them. Think that they didn't believe in the God that we know."
• Some (not all) religious person, present day. ""Son, our God works in mysterious ways and we are to learn from this."
• Some religious or not person, present day. "Son, though I'm not sure exactly why lightning struck that house, but maybe it's because the house was higher up on the hill and lightning tends to favor such elevated things. Such things are infrequent, but can happen.
• Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda. "Son, _______."

What does the person living in today's Arda say to his son? Was it Melkor, Melkor's legacy, part of Eru's plan, Manwe, etc?

And note that I don't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs.

Originally Posted by a child (ahem) of the 7th Age

Would you stop calling me son, Dad? I'm your daughter, in case you hadn't noticed.

[Bêthberry]

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"

Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by radagastly

If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?

These natural disasters are only disasters because people are around to witness (and suffer from) them.

Natural disasters are only disasters from a human (or elvish) perspective. They have nothing to do with the (ongoing) shaping of Arda, marred or unmarred. We simply find them in our way!

But the Valar (excepting Morgoth) worked in concert with the theme of Eru. One only ever reads of them building and making that which is good.