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Old 08-22-2007, 01:25 PM   #1
Formendacil
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Perhaps this may be a tad too serious an answer for such a question, but I think we've seen the start of the correct answer in saying "it is Melkor's evil at work in the world".

To expand on that, if one reads the essays in HoME X Morgoth's Ring, I believe it is in the fourth section (the one that deals specifically with various Melkor Morgoth related topics), one will find the writings that gave the book its name.

Unfortunately, I don't have my copy at home with me, but it's back up at college, but I can recap:

Basically, in the same way that Sauron disseminated his power into the Ring, and used it to control things (specifically, the other Rings), Morgoth disseminated his power on a much broader scale: throughout all the physical matter of Arda. Tolkien adds that nothing (possibly excepting Aman) is free of the "taint" of Morgoth. Some parts of matter are more tainted than others; gold, for example, is a very strongly tainted element, hence why Sauron used it to make the Ring, as opposed to silver, but all matter has some Morgoth-element in it.

In the same way that the Sauron-element in the Ring gave it a "consciousness", so to speak, which we see manifested in the way it seeks to return to him, and betray its wearer, it is logical to assume that the Melkor-element in Arda is similarly still working towards his goal. And that goal, ultimately, we are also told in the same section of HoME X, is "the destruction and annihilation of Arda". Morgoth is unable to ever create or control all things, for he is not Eru, and as he becomes more evil, he becomes more blindly destructive.

In this light, I think it is very easy to see hurricanes, earthquakes, or the like as the manifestations of the Melkor-element in Arda blindly raging in destruction.

Sorry about no direct quotes, but my set of the HoME is in Edmonton, and I'm three hours away on a three week holiday at home.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:02 AM   #2
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Seemingly the consensus is that it's Melkor's legacy that causes the natural disasters. Though he was cast into the Void, his malevolence lingers to plague the residents, flora, fauna and works within Arda. All well and good. It's not what we would have wanted, but at least we know who's behind the disasters and so just have to tough it out as best we can.

Or is there something we can do?

Assume an earthquake swallows up an entire village as father and son watch from a safe vantage point. It's not their village, so they aren't as upset as if it were their home. Still, as they walk home, the father has to answer more questions from his inquisitive son.
  • "Dad, why is it that whenever we're together we witness some calamity?"
  • "Dad, I know that although the Dark Lord was defeated long ago, we still have to live with his residual evil, but why can't something be done by the Valar?"
Dad ponders this. Are Manwë, Aulë and their ilk busy dancing around in Aman and so weren't available to help the village, did they fear to intervene as the Valar are still smarting over their failure that was the elven intervention, or did the Valar intervene and though the village was swallowed whole by the ground, at least the man and his son got to walk away as that's about as much the gods could do, as there seems to be a limit to their ability to stave off disasters such as this? Dad, in this thoughts, summarizes then speaks to his son, "Son, either the Valar won't help, can't help or did help as much as they could. I don't know the answer; there's a whole in the ground where that village used to be, regardless."

Maybe that's why no one prays in Middle Earth.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:21 AM   #3
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Real World - things just happen. We are just vulnerable apes in clothes no matter how we try and impose our intellect on things. We can prevent or predict some disasters but not others, nature is Bigger Than Us. It serves to put us in our place. Some answer it with religion, others with science, either way it's intellectualising and nature often shows us up for being too clever

Tolkien's World - here things are more simple in a way. Eru creates Morgoth, who goes out and marrs the creation of the world, but hey, in doing so, he also creates the chance for great works of beauty - both inadvertent creations of his evil such as beautiful ice floes and mighty thunderstorms, and creations made in response to his evil such as Gondolin, mighty swords and human qualities of bravery and honour. All of which ironically serve only to fly in the face of Morgoth and make Eru look that bit more cool and awesome.

The Book of Job shows us a similar God, one who causes smiting and destruction, and when Job questions him, he finds out it's Because He Can, Don't Question My Authority. I reckon if Alatar of the Barrow Downs asked the same question of Eru - why do you allow this? - he might get much the same answer, but with the footnote and pat on the head: "but don't worry, because whatever nasty stuff Morgoth has put into Arda, ultimately only serves to glorify me a bit more".
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
Real World - things just happen. We are just vulnerable apes in clothes no matter how we try and impose our intellect on things. We can prevent or predict some disasters but not others, nature is Bigger Than Us. It serves to put us in our place. Some answer it with religion, others with science, either way it's intellectualising and nature often shows us up for being too clever
I wouldn't say that "things just happen," even though I say that a lot. There is a cause; sometimes we don't know what that is, but it's not like, out of the blue sky an elven princess appears with a sword to your throat (that's caused by Peter Jackson). It's always something, but I know what you mean. There's no malevolent will behind a lightning strike; maybe standing atop the highest hill in the area during a lightning storm parading around with a tall iron pole had something to do with your being fried.

Quote:
Tolkien's World - here things are more simple in a way. Eru creates Morgoth, who goes out and marrs the creation of the world, but hey, in doing so, he also creates the chance for great works of beauty - both inadvertent creations of his evil such as beautiful ice floes and mighty thunderstorms, and creations made in response to his evil such as Gondolin, mighty swords and human qualities of bravery and honour. All of which ironically serve only to fly in the face of Morgoth and make Eru look that bit more cool and awesome.
Great. We get to do our best to duck and dodge the remnants of Melkor just so Eru can appear cooler. Is he some geek teenager in some school? "Dudes, check this out! In my little terrarium here I got this cool white stuff falling from the clouds. My experiments call it 'snow.'" "Dude, what's with all of the bodies lying on the ground over there?" "Think that we call that 'overhead.'"

Quote:
The Book of Job shows us a similar God, one who causes smiting and destruction, and when Job questions him, he finds out it's Because He Can, Don't Question My Authority. I reckon if Alatar of the Barrow Downs asked the same question of Eru - why do you allow this? - he might get much the same answer, but with the footnote and pat on the head: "but don't worry, because whatever nasty stuff Morgoth has put into Arda, ultimately only serves to glorify me a bit more".
Guess that puts Eru in the 'almost perfect' set, as perfect, seemingly, could not receive additional glory.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:10 PM   #5
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Why don't the Valar do anything? Are Manwë and Varda powerless?

I think the answer is, for the most part: yes.

Think about it; we are told that the Valar did not make war on Morgoth after his escape from Valinor (I believe this may also be from Morgoth's Ring), quite largely because to do so would rend the earth in much the same fashion as the tumults of the world when they imprisoned him the first time, and they feared for the survival of Men, who are not as hardy as the Elves.

Additionally, though, if we continue to compare the Earth to the Ring, then remember how Sauron's connection to the Ring was finally broken: by destruction--utter destruction in Mt. Doom.

If the Valar destroy "Morgoth's Ring", we are left with... nothing. Arda will be no more--or no more inhabitable by Men, anyway (and probably not by anything else, either).

Of course, the day will come when the Valar must take the battle to Morgoth. Tolkien's writings are lightly scattered with references to "Dagor Dagorath", the battle at the end of times, when Melkor will at last be slain, but also when the Earth shall end. Shall "Morgoth's Ring" be destroyed--the final end of Arda Marred?
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
Shall "Morgoth's Ring" be destroyed--the final end of Arda Marred?
There are two versions that I know of: healing - or recreation of Arda:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Note iii to Of the severance, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X
Since the Elves (and Men) were made for Arda, the satisfaction of their nature will require Arda (without the malice of the Marrer): therefore before the Ending the Marring will be wholly undone or healed (or absorbed into good, beauty, and joy).
...
But others use another analogy, saying that there will indeed be a New Arda, rebuilt from the beginning without Malice, and that the Elves will take part in this from the beginning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X
- [Those of the Old Hope] say, answered Andreth: they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
"but don't worry, because whatever nasty stuff Morgoth has put into Arda, ultimately only serves to glorify me a bit more".
The more consistent answer is, rather, that all evil works for good, something you touched upon in your post. Tolkien had this idea about his created world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, Myths Transformed HoME X
Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come.
or real life:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #64
All we do know, and that to a large extent by direct experience, is that evil labours with vast power and perpetual success – in vain: preparing always only the soil for unexpected good to sprout in. So it is in general, and so it is in our own lives. ....
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