Lord of Gravity

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Thanks. Another English world unknown to the dictionaries I have access to .

Fear not. I coined it. It means, loosely, "nonsense"; specifically, it is the act of batting one's lips up and down with the forefinger.

I believe I have made it clear in my argument that I am not referring to those who are in power.

Yes, you did, but I don't accept the distinction. In free republics and democracies, or at least so-called ones, the people are responsible for the government that rules them.

I was primarily referring to citizens from at least the "civilized" countries, where discrimination is at least frowned upon, death sentence is outlawed, torture is not seen as an everyday tool in gathering information, so on and so forth (I know, there is a notable exception).

Even this distinction overlooks the reality that the governments of "civilized" countries are supposed to be the most powerful in the world right now, and turn a blind eye to the injustices of Darfur, Rwanda, Sierre Leone, Nigeria, and others, all of which could be stopped if the so-called "civilized" and supposedly enlightened developed nations had the moral will to do so. However, that moral will is not there; the "civilized" citizens who elect their leaders care more about our local football teams and retirement funds and entitlements.

But even in such conditions, we do see organizing and action against injustices at home and abroad, and I certainly doubt that despair is at the foundation of these actions; quite the contrary, it is hope in victory that motivates.

Yes, except that these "We are the world" types of endeavors are really only band-aids placed upon symptoms. What Africa and other developing nations need is international justice; even a Marshall Plan or better for our time; but I don't see that kind of thing happening.

Ultimately, yes: absent faith, despair is surely the outcome, at least in Ea.

Yes.

However, this has strayed a good deal from the main point. The point I have been making is that humans have not evolved morally.

My earlier point, that despair is the only logical conclusion to the Tolkienian system, was facetious in part, based on my reading of history such that humans have a knack for forgetting about Eru, and thus tend to lose, over the course of perhaps three or more generations, the basis they once had for their hope.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

In free republics and democracies, or at least so-called ones, the people are responsible for the government that rules them.
...
the "civilized" citizens who elect their leaders care more about our local football teams and retirement funds and entitlements.

In my opinion, you are raising too high the standard for what you consider moral advancement in this area, while disregarding it in others. Progresses, or at least fights, are made in that direction, but it ought to be taken into account that the current system immensely benefits a certain few, and these oligarchs (public or private) are willing to use their vast resources to preserve the status quo. Frankly, if we truly had the rule of the people, it would pretty much be already Arda Unmarred, since, according to some studies, it would take only the agricultural production of two advanced countries to ensure food for all humanity, a fraction of what is spent on military would ensure worldwide education and cover other basic needs, and the means to advanced technologically can be acquired without hurting the environment. We are not already there, but the necessary cognitive liberation is taking place even in this aspect.

humans have a knack for forgetting about Eru, and thus tend to lose, over the course of perhaps three or more generations, the basis they once had for their hope.

Well, we might have that inclination; happily (and we should say happily, no matter how bitter the situation), though "being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, [we] would stray often, and would not use [our] gifts in harmony", events occur in our lives that open our eyes and our heart.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In my opinion, you are raising too high the standard for what you consider moral advancement in this area, while disregarding it in others.

It's not my standard, it's the moral standard. Right action is right action, or else it is wrong.

We are not already there, but the necessary cognitive liberation is taking place even in this aspect.

Cognitive liberation simply isn't enough. Saruman knew what he had become which is demonstrated in his recognition of its opposite in Frodo. But he refused because he wanted to hate and ruin others' lives rather than humble himself and receive mercy, let alone pay for his crimes. He's an illustration of the need for a "cardiac" liberation.

Well, we might have that inclination; happily (and we should say happily, no matter how bitter the situation), though "being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, [we] would stray often, and would not use [our] gifts in harmony", events occur in our lives that open our eyes and our heart.

Yes, if we choose to accept it.

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda. "Son, we live in Arda marred. The taint of Morgoth is upon all things. We will mourn the loss of our friends on the heights, and we shall put their deeds to song."

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It's not my standard, it's the moral standard. Right action is right action, or else it is wrong.

It is commendable that you hold yourself to such high standards; however, concerning judging others, I agree with Tolkien:

Originally Posted by Letter #246

To others, in any case of which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a scale tempered by 'mercy': that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias inevitable in judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of another's strength and weigh this against the force of particular circumstances.

Cognitive liberation simply isn't enough. Saruman knew what he had become which is demonstrated in his recognition of its opposite in Frodo.

True, but again, we are not talking about the same subjects, since it is our average "hobbit" (Man) that I have in mind. In the end, maybe a lot of us would be highly tempted to perpetuate the status quo, if it would bring great benefits, albeit at great costs to others; I am not casting any stone. "We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our soul-body structure in either action or endurance". My point is that cognitive liberation may be enough to move people to action; as far as I know, most of our liberties and rights have occurred due to upward public pressure, and not otherwise; in several writings I read on the subject of social movements, cognitive liberation is a highly significant step towards social change.

Yes, if we choose to accept it.

From my knowledge and experience, it is not a once in a lifetime opportunity .

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

It is commendable that you hold yourself to such high standards; however, concerning judging others...

If only I actually did. That I know what is right does not mean that I do it.

True, but again, we are not talking about the same subjects, since it is our average "hobbit" (Man) that I have in mind.

Saruman was the best example of my point. In that example I would venture to say that he acted as like an average "hobbit" (human) as an Istar conceivably could.

My point is that cognitive liberation may be enough to move people to action...

Hobbits are a good example that people don't really want to know the truth; it might force them to change.

From my knowledge and experience, it is not a once in a lifetime opportunity .

True, but there may come a last chance. As with Saruman. He didn't realize it would be his chance when it came, but then, suddenly, it was too late.

[alatar]

Until lmp's and Raynor's discussion, I thought that I had all of the answers that I needed:

• Unless you're someone really really special, prayer - petitioning the Valar - is useless. Divine help is not coming. Have an escape plan ready, and store extra food, water and candles.
• Use the last Age's manure to grow your garden. Manure is just a part of the way things work, and you might as well hold your nose and make the best of it.
• Be a good steward. Remove the rocks that you find so that your descendants will have better soil.

As to the discussion, though I found it interesting, not exactly sure what it all means. Pessimist/skeptic/cynic that I am, I don't think that the world is getting worse, morally. Same percentages; larger number of participants. Back during the Kin-strife, we had good and bad people slain for no good reason, though the numbers were limited. Today, we can play the same old game but increase the damage - human and otherwise - exponentially. Also, sans a palantir one didn't hear news unless one actively sought out a loquacious Dwarf or made the journey to the borders or even Bree (from a Shire folk's point of view). Today all of us have second generation palantirs in our homes, and so can know news in real time from anywhere on this globe. So anyway, we may be not better or worse than when we started, and so that makes me feel that the 'despair' noted above is unwarranted.

Today's heroes don't get immortalized in songs like they once did, and maybe their deeds aren't as valiant. Hurin may not be found again - our species doesn't have a Durin - but even today there are some little and big stands taken against the darkness, and that too gives me hope.

There's also a little corner in me - probably due to the kids - that thinks that as a species we might make it. Doesn't the foretelling say that we humans, carrying the blood of the three races, will always spring back up? And in the end we leave. Isn't that the true gift that Eru gave us? The chance to leave this all behind - all of it, maybe even Him, as if this is the best he can do, giving us Arda Marred... - and go elsewhere? Maybe one day we will live elsewhere, and leave Melkor's taint here.

Thanks for posting.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe one day we will live elsewhere, and leave Melkor's taint here.

Yes. Somewhere ... Else. By way of Niggle's Parish, I'm thinking.