Denethor's plunge

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.

I'm looking around and trying to figure out who you are talking to. Or about.

2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real

You seem intent on ignoring the previous points posted by Alatar and myself which indicate not a free-styling "anything goes" world, but a world where events extend just beyond our borders of mortality. C.S. Lewis once likened the miracles of Christ to a game of chess, where this move or that move may be taken back at certain points, but at no time do you suppose you can move any piece anywhere at any time. This destroys the value of the game, and creates unruly anarchy. So it would seem to be with fantasy. And again, if these little things continue to nag and irritate you (still further, that they don't bother others) then I submit for a second time that perhaps fantasy just isn't your cup of tea.

5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said

You are either not referring to me, or did not read what I wrote. Either way, you owe it to us to make clear to whom you refer.

You have a wonderful all encompassing Catch 22 here. If Tolkien created his world, anything he has his creations do in his world is perfect and thus cannot be worng. Thus, there are no errors in the work, there are no holes (other than the previously mention major loophole), there are no lapses in logic or reason, and there can be no defying of scinece, physiology or anything else we might normally call reality. We got it covered and can never be wrong.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth at least, and to my knowledge, Alatar's. I do not believe anyone here suggests Tolkien is perfect, or is averse to highlighting flaws in the book. Tolkien himself was constantly rewriting the series.

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

The truth seems to come forth, and I believe that in revealing latent hostility towards religion, we have taken a step beyond the scope of this forum. For the record, as a born-again Christian, I reject the notion that any mortal (Pope or not, "Saint" or not, "Mother of God" or not) can attain perfection in word or deed on earth, save one, Jesus Christ. Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar.

Nonetheless, this thread, this forum and this website were not created to debate or discuss specifically religious themes apart from Tolkien's world. If you would be so kind as to e-mail me, I would look forward to continuing the discussion there.

[Sauron the White]

First, I am sorry if I went to far in expressing my frustration at not being able to make my point.

Second, I was not expressing any hostility or anti-religious views - only attempting to show a comparison between the catch all the Catholic Church has to explain why they are right in matters of docctrine and why Tolkien purists are right. It is maddening at times.

Allow me to answer a specific point raised by Knight of Gondor. Sometimes I start typing a response when I should be rereading and soaking it up first. I guess the rule should be engage mind before fingers. I went back and read and reread your computations for running and times. Allow me to engage with you on that topic.

Okay, let's get mathematical about this. The average mortal human running speed is about 15 miles an hour. Faster runners can achieve faster speeds, but let's stay with 15 mph.

15 mph equals a four minute mile. No highly trained athlete runs a four minute mile for anything beyond a mile. Winning marathon times (26+miles) are always at about 5 minutes per mile or 12 mph. That is a difference in your calculations reducing them by 25%.

But again, we are not talking about your "average normal human". Not by a long stretch. We are talking about a highly trained superior athlete who has just run the equal of the Olympic Marathon making them the best in the world.

You want to use your "average normal human" - they cannot run one mile in ten minutes without training.

Discounting for the moment the need for sustenance and rests, running at the average 15 miles per hour, one could achieve 135 miles' distance in nine hours of solid running.

The world record for running 50 miles -just a bit more than the 45 miles per day we are using here - is four hours and 50 minutes. Please keep in mind two things when you think about that record. Running ultra marathons is a speciality, and extreme of an extreme that not even 1% of marathon runners attempt. Now we are taking the world record holder and we have the extreme of an extreme of an extreme. We are talking about the best long distance runner of all time. I will take a liberty here- and round that off to five hours. Even if a person were able to run that time for three straight days - the best distance runner in the history of the world would need 15 hours of time to run - not the 9 you calculate.

Obviously, mortal humans cannot keep up a constant speed of running. Let's say, for more than 15 minutes, or one quarter of an hour at a time. Multiplying nine hours by four, we can surmise that 36 intervals of 15 minutes at a time running at 15 miles an hour would achieve the same distance as 9 hours of solid running.

Many people here probably know tons more about the writings of JRRT than I could ever hope to do. I admit that. One thing I do know about is distance running. It is easier to run for a longer length of time in one sustained period than it is to run for a shorter distance - stop - rest- cool down - get up and run some more. The idea of running a long distance using this method is not really practical given the mechanics of muscles, how they work, how they cool down, and how fatigue begins to set in soon after. Your interval method is not the way long distances are run.

Now let us allot 72 hours (three days) and not count the extended "day four" period of time during which the Three Hunters meet Eomer. Multiplying 72 by 4, we find that there are a total of 288 quarter-hour periods in the span of three 24-hour days. Therefore, the Three Hunters need only have spent nine percent of their journeying time running at a constant speed of 15 miles an hour for fifteen minutes at a time.

The average person has difficulty running even an 8 minute pace. And that is giving them the benefit of the doubt that they could run a mile. An untrained person rarely can.

The Three Hunters did their ultra -marathon over a three day period in late February in a northern hemisphere climate. If you check sunrise and sunset tables you will find 12 hours of daylight available. Much is made in the books of travelling in daylight time. So they have 36 hours to run 145 miles or they must cover 4 miles every hours of every daylight hour available to them. They must cover 45 miles per day.

Running two-a-days is brutal and most runners reject it in favor of one longer run. Again, your interval method simply does not work for distance running. Nobody uses it. It contradicts basic anatomy and physiology.

The best you could hope to do would be two sessions of 22 miles each. Go and look up marathon times for the 26 mile race. When I used to run marathons my best time was 3:15 - thats a 7:30 mile for 26 straight miles. That put me in the top 15% of finishers out of nearly 4,000 trained runners. The average finishing time was over 9 minutes per mile. The Three Hunters were not trained marathon runners who could expect an average time of 9 minutes per mile. Even at that pace it would be only 5.5 miles covered in an hour. To get your 22 miles each of the Three Hunters would have to run for four straight hours. Then they could rest and have to do it all over again before the sunsets. Eight of the 12 hours available to them would be spent running at a 9 minute mile pace.

Here are some questions to consider about that run.

What is one their feet? The records and runners we are talking about are wearing highly developed running shoes of very light but durable material designed for one thing - running. The book describes two of our Three as wearing a type of heavy boot. Go and get a construction type workboot and try running in it for even a half mile. Again, this is not a matter of wil power, or motivation or desire. Its basic mechanics.

What is the terrain they are covering? Runners we are talking about run on solid and flat ground without holes or rocks or streams or anything that impedes their progress. Even through a winding city course, they run on a course that has been selected as runner friendly. Is that the terrain the Three Hunters were covering over their three days. I think not. It was much tougher in all respects. Whhat do you think that would do to both their times and increasing the wear and tear on their bodies?


There is not the space here - nor would anyone care to read it - if I attempted to explain the biomechanics of muscles and how they store and process glycogen to power them. It takes the average person nearly six months of training to properly prepare their muscles to store and use enough glycogen to run one race of 26 miles. And then most people can barely lift their feet the remainder of the day. Runners then take off several days or even weeks to recover. You cannot run a marathon a day - let alone over 1.6 marathons a day for three straight days.

To be merciful, we could cut the periods of running down to 10 minutes' time. The distance could then be achieved with 54 intervals running 15 miles an hour, or only about one-fifth of the alloted time of 72 hours.

To be further merciful (accounting for the time(s) of rest and sleep), let's only allot 60 hours. That's 240 periods of 15 minutes each running at 15 miles an hour for ten minutes at a time. Thus requiring only 23% of the time to be used to run.

As you can see the remainder of your calculations are way off. You do not have 60 hours but only 36 hours of daylight.... and perhaps a few hours of daylight on the morning of the fourth day. Maybe 40 hours. Your time available has been reduced by a full one-third. Your 15 minute interval period does not work. Your average speed given is wildly impractical. And you make no consideration at all for terrain and footwear. And as to the subject of muscles and glycogen, you did not even attempt to address that.

On the negative side, there were breaks to find tracks and breaks for rest and sustenance

How much time would that take away from you remaing four hours per day?

Funny thing is when I first read LOTR in 1971, I had never run long distances and the whole Three Hunters thing went by without a question from me. It worked and made sense. I started running in 1976 and marathons a year later. When I reread LOTR that chapter stood out like a sore thumb and it now borders on absurdity.

[Nazgûl-king]

I am kinda currious how he got that far that fast, but it is a pretty cool looking scene.

[Diane C]

I know I'm raking up an old thread here, but this particular scene has always bothered me. In fact the whole funeral pyre thing was just too clumsy & ill conceived in my eyes, right the from the moment Gandalf enters on Shadowfax.

He rides up and manages to knock Denathor flying off his pyre, but then rather than worrying about Faramir, who is also on the bonfire and unconscious Gandalf continues to faff about with Denathor, leaving it to Merry do somehow jump on the stack and push Faramir's dead weight from the burning pile. And then Shadowfax rears up and knocks Denathor back onto the fire, who then legs it all the way down the Silent Street and off!

I just found the entire scene contrived and not at all believable, sorry

[Blokdog]

I think we should just look at an ordinary armour: first, a shirt is worn. above this, a vest, and only then comes the mail. over that the robe and other things... so, if the flames from the pyre burned his robe, It may have taken at least a few minutes to heaten the inside of the armour, although the question what exactly burned after the robe was consumed remains. as you see, with tea it's the same: if the steel is hot, you take it using some other material.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row.

It's the 'marathon' model that's leading you astray. Running 26+ miles in three hours or so is indeed a killing endeavor (athough triathletes seem to have energy left over).

But this is not what the Three Hunters did. They travelled from dawn to dusk (actually before dawn the first day). At the end of February in a northern latitude that would mean 9-10 hours/day of travel time. This means an average speed of 3.5-3.9 mph: that's a walking pace.

Perspective: most experienced backpackers will do 3.5 mi/hr in mountains, and 4 on the flat. Why on earth is it 'impossible' for the 3H to have done this over the rolling plains of Rohan? As to 'untrained": Aragorn is supposedly the greatest traveller in the world, and is moreover of the Line of Elendil. Legolas is an Elf, not given to human weariness, and (we are told) capable of sleeping on the move. This isn't exactly a human physiology! And Dwarves, within Middle-earth, are legendary for being stone-hard and enduring.

And you claim that these 3 explicitly superhuman individuals couldn't do what Stonewall Jackson's 'foot cavalry' did many times?

[Sauron the White]

wch - Tolkien describes them as running. They did not walk. JRRT also used the term "striding" which I take to mean a type of race walking where you are power walking at a pace much faster than a walk pace. They mixed is some race-walking with the running, but he mainly describes running.

I said in the beginning that I condede Legolas being able to perform this feat given that Elves are so very different and there is written evidence of that.

And for purposes of civility allow me to say that given the description of Aragorn, I could stretch myself to allow the possibility that he could possible do it IF there was far more walking involved than running.... and IF the terrain was almost completely flat without obstruction ..... and IF he had proper footwear to allow him to rack up those miles without long periods of recuperation .... and IF he was not tracking and looking for signs along the way. But okay, for purposes of debate, lets say Aragorn, being really special and unique could do it also.

Now we come to the most problematic of the bunch. Gimli. How tall is Gimli? My guess would be about 4 feet, maybe 4 feet 2 inches. Is that right or wrong? And he is a dwarf with a massive chest and very strong upper body and shorter, stunted legs. He weighed in the area of 200 pounds give or take and I would guess that most of his bulk and power was abovethe hips an his legs were the weakest part of his body. That type of body is the direct opposite of what body type is conducive to running or even power walking. If I am wrong, please scour the list of marathon finishers and name the one person with that type of body who ran a marathon recently.

And what was Gimli wearing on his feet? And what was he dressed in? And what weapons did he carry? Do you think for a minute that any of this was conducive to a long distance ultra- marathon of three days while they stopped and tracked repeatedly along the way? And all this on top of the fact that Gimli was untrained in such an undertaking?

But to believe JRRT, it was simple will power and desire that allowed him to overcome all of these practical, physical and scientific realities. Okay, thats called willing suspension of disbelief. You believe because you want to believe. You believe because you really like the story and the characters and want to go with it and not be a pain in the butt.

Fine. We all do it. Thats the way lots of books and films work.

But William, my point from the very start was a simple one. Many people here on this site love the books and will give them the largest dose of willing suspension of disbelief possible. We can accept that fact that an untrained dwarf can run 145 miles in three days over varied terrain while a modern marathon runner could not do it. Fine. But when it comes to the movies, watch out brother because the charts and graphs and maps and logic and reason and deduction and common sense all comes out in massive quantities to prove that Peter Jackson is either
a- a jerk
b- a moron
c- a heretic
d- a bad filmmaker
e- all of the above

What made me post about this was the excellent use of film stills on page one of this thread by Knight of Gondor. Using the exact stills from the film, he shows that the distance between where Denethor catches fire to the distance where he plunges to the ground was impossible to cover by a man engulfed in flames. I congratulate him on his effort. It is honest, straight forward and can be checked and rechecked for accuracy.

And then poster after poster piles on pretty much taking the position that Peter Jackson is indeed either a,b,c,d, or e from my above list. And what does this do? It reinforces preconveived beliefs that
a- the book is something on the level of Holy Writ and should never be altered, changed or deviated from, and
b- those LOTR movies sure did suck and lets laugh at them some more.

There is one other problem with this thread as I see it. I have just viewed the Denethor plunge scene on my DVD player. It is the same one as seen by the hundreds of millions of people who paid over a billion dollars to see it in the theaters. From the time Denethor starts his flaming run to the time he flies off the end of the rampway, exactly ten seconds of film time elapses. Ten seconds. What everyone in the theater saw was a man on fire for ten seconds. How many films over the years have given us a man on fire for far more of a length of time than that?

Theviewers of the film DID NOT SEE the series of stills that Knight of Gondor put up on the first page here with a description of the length of each area and an estimate of the time it would take to travel each. If we had seen Denethor completely run that entire length in flames and it take two to three minutes the result would have been absurd.

But that is not what was in the film and that was not what the viewers saw and that was not what was in the mind of those viewers. For them, it worked just like the rest of the film did.

Willing suspension of disbelief. That is at the heart of this. I use it when I read the books and I use it again when I view the films. I love both and cherish both.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I acknowledge your point about Gimli- although it is I suppose possible to imagine that mountain-bred, broad-chested Dwarves, like Sherpas and some Andean peoples, have much greater lung capacity and blood volume relative to body size than we do. I suppose when I read the books I envisioned the 'running' as being akin to the long-distance run/walk lope which Creeks and other Indians could maintain for hours and leagues, not the edge-of-endurance effort we see in competitive races.

And, again, I've done 20- 25 miles/day repeatedly in mountains with a sixty-pound pack and heavy boots. If one's objective is to keep moving for 10 or 12 hours, one sets one's pace to that level, not to 26-miles-as-fast-as-possible.

In any event, the Great Chase was *supposed* to be astonishing- wasn't Eomer duly amazed? "Wingfoot I name you." (It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).

Another 'goof' of Tolkien's of the same sort is his reliance on Army manuals to get marching distances right..but forgetting that Hobbits of course have a stride only about half that of fullsize humans. Frodo, Sam and Gollum must have been fair truckin' over parts of their journey!

On the 'hypocrisy' issue- I've never been very exercised over the likelihood of Plunging Steward, except for humor (and we all joke about the books, too). I just dislike the fact that Jackson eschewed the psychologically dramatic scene Tolkien wrote for another 'hey lookit me!' sfx shot.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

(It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).

But they ate only the best manflesh, which was fortified with time-released glycogen, amino acids and vitamins that could keep an orc on its feet running all day. It also contained a mild hallucinogen that made one think that a Balrog was in pursuit.

[Knight of Gondor]

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...

But he wasn't a Dwarf, but a big man; yes a big man. Actual height/stride not necessarily known.

[Quempel]

I think this is where the problem lies for me. It’s not the plunge of Denethor that is so ridiculous to believe, it’s the fact that Jackson felt changing it from the book is what is unbelievable (to me). Yes I can suspend my disbelief with the plunge, what I have a hard time with is believing Peter Jackson thought his version of Denethors death was better than Tolkiens. It’s not the actual scene that is so hard to believe, it’s that Jackson actually thought he could do it better.

The bottom line is one can take Jackson’s billion dollar Oscar winning movie out of Tolkien’s world, and Tolkien’s world remains. However, one can not take Tolkien’s world out of Jackson’s work. If Tolkien had not written LoTR exactly what would have made Jackson his billions and won the awards, that’s right nothing. This is this and that is that.

Jackson interpreted Tolkiens work, and some of us backwards Appalachian inter-bread doofs actually think that Tolkien did a better job on the story. Call us backwater inbreeds dumb but we actually think the person who invented Middle Earth probably did a pretty good job with it. Some of us are not saying that Jackson did a bad job, but some of his changes were unbelievable, not because of the scene itself, but because the book simply did it better. Case in point Denethor’s death. It has absolutely nothing, nada, zilch to do with him running three miles on fire, it has to do with the fact that Jackson changed the scene completely, that is what is so unbelievable. The scene in the book was great, why change it. The change is what is unbelievable, not the actual scene. It has nothing to do with suspending our disbelief in fantasy, it has to do with our suspending our disbelief into thinking that Jackson actually interpreted the scene from the book they way he did.

To me at points in the movies and with some of the character changes Jackson did, I often wonder what book he read. I like the movies just fine, and it matters not to me how much money or awards they made and recieved, they are good movies. But they are Jackson interperation and some of his interpertations leave me wondering what I watched and why it was so far from the book when it didn't need to be.

[Sauron the White]

William ... thank you for the acknowledgement. Its appreciated. When you mention lung capacity that is one of those things that non-runners think is important because it is one of the first problems non runners encounter - being "out of breath". Funny thing is your lungs are probably the easiest physcial part of training since you are constantly taking in fresh air while you exercise unlike glycogen or muscle capacity which gives you the real trouble. I have heard many runners say their lungs could go for hundreds of miles , its the legs that kill them.

You trekking through the mountains is inspiring. I have a deathly fear of heights - or more accurately - falling from heights and can only admire mountains from the ground level.

Matthew - I acknowledge that Jackson did not invent Middle-earth. I give JRRT all respect and praise for that accomplishment. But in point of fact, legally, it did become Jacksons world to do as he pleased with it when New Line acquired the film rights and hired him to make the films. He did not build the house but he bought it and had the right to do what he wanted with it. So more semantics come into play.

I am not intending to compare anyones faith with the books. My point - and I am sorry if this was not made clear by me - was that after all these exchanges of points of view, debate, discussion and even argument, in the end it comes down to "if Tolkien wrote it and created it then its right in his world". Its an argument like having four aces up your sleeve in a poker game. Sure you can sit and play your hand against that person but in the end they will play the aces and you can never win. I thought of the same approach in discussions during my Catholic School education where the priests and nuns would willingly engage you in deep intellectual exchanges about all things but in the end the same aces up the sleeve were played. "It's this way because the Pope says it is and the Pope is picked by God and can do no wrong." Pretty much ends any discusssion right there as those aces come into play.

That has nothing to do with yours, mine or anyones religions beliefs. The comparison is only made because of the commonality of the unlevel power of it.

Quempel... you say

This is this and that is that.

I agree with you 100%. But I take it further. Like Robert DeNiro said in THE DEERHUNTER ....... "this is this.... this isn't something else.... this is this".

A book is a book and a film is a film. A book is not a film and a film is not a book. Each has its own properties, its own integrity and its own dynamics. Comparing them is like comparing apples to cinder blocks. In the end the experts astound no one by declaring that after exhaustive study apples do indeed taste better than cinder blocks ..... but cinder blocks make for better building material.

[Quempel]

For the record I like The Deer Hunter just fine.

And I will leave it at that since I do not agree that since Newline owns the rights to the story it makes it their story. I really don't want to argue sematics this day.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sauron- the lung cap is to me less significant than the 125% of 'normal' blood volume, which implies accelerated liver function and faster glycogen transfer to the muscles; it might also be the case that lembas is some sort of ultra-carb supplement as well. There may be faster filtering of lactic acid buildup as well.

In any event, the Hunters aren't moving at a marathon pace; that's objective given the time and distance, and no reason to think that they'd be burning calories at such a rate as to hit the energy wall at 20 miles.