Denethor's plunge

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row.

It's the 'marathon' model that's leading you astray. Running 26+ miles in three hours or so is indeed a killing endeavor (athough triathletes seem to have energy left over).

But this is not what the Three Hunters did. They travelled from dawn to dusk (actually before dawn the first day). At the end of February in a northern latitude that would mean 9-10 hours/day of travel time. This means an average speed of 3.5-3.9 mph: that's a walking pace.

Perspective: most experienced backpackers will do 3.5 mi/hr in mountains, and 4 on the flat. Why on earth is it 'impossible' for the 3H to have done this over the rolling plains of Rohan? As to 'untrained": Aragorn is supposedly the greatest traveller in the world, and is moreover of the Line of Elendil. Legolas is an Elf, not given to human weariness, and (we are told) capable of sleeping on the move. This isn't exactly a human physiology! And Dwarves, within Middle-earth, are legendary for being stone-hard and enduring.

And you claim that these 3 explicitly superhuman individuals couldn't do what Stonewall Jackson's 'foot cavalry' did many times?

[Sauron the White]

wch - Tolkien describes them as running. They did not walk. JRRT also used the term "striding" which I take to mean a type of race walking where you are power walking at a pace much faster than a walk pace. They mixed is some race-walking with the running, but he mainly describes running.

I said in the beginning that I condede Legolas being able to perform this feat given that Elves are so very different and there is written evidence of that.

And for purposes of civility allow me to say that given the description of Aragorn, I could stretch myself to allow the possibility that he could possible do it IF there was far more walking involved than running.... and IF the terrain was almost completely flat without obstruction ..... and IF he had proper footwear to allow him to rack up those miles without long periods of recuperation .... and IF he was not tracking and looking for signs along the way. But okay, for purposes of debate, lets say Aragorn, being really special and unique could do it also.

Now we come to the most problematic of the bunch. Gimli. How tall is Gimli? My guess would be about 4 feet, maybe 4 feet 2 inches. Is that right or wrong? And he is a dwarf with a massive chest and very strong upper body and shorter, stunted legs. He weighed in the area of 200 pounds give or take and I would guess that most of his bulk and power was abovethe hips an his legs were the weakest part of his body. That type of body is the direct opposite of what body type is conducive to running or even power walking. If I am wrong, please scour the list of marathon finishers and name the one person with that type of body who ran a marathon recently.

And what was Gimli wearing on his feet? And what was he dressed in? And what weapons did he carry? Do you think for a minute that any of this was conducive to a long distance ultra- marathon of three days while they stopped and tracked repeatedly along the way? And all this on top of the fact that Gimli was untrained in such an undertaking?

But to believe JRRT, it was simple will power and desire that allowed him to overcome all of these practical, physical and scientific realities. Okay, thats called willing suspension of disbelief. You believe because you want to believe. You believe because you really like the story and the characters and want to go with it and not be a pain in the butt.

Fine. We all do it. Thats the way lots of books and films work.

But William, my point from the very start was a simple one. Many people here on this site love the books and will give them the largest dose of willing suspension of disbelief possible. We can accept that fact that an untrained dwarf can run 145 miles in three days over varied terrain while a modern marathon runner could not do it. Fine. But when it comes to the movies, watch out brother because the charts and graphs and maps and logic and reason and deduction and common sense all comes out in massive quantities to prove that Peter Jackson is either
a- a jerk
b- a moron
c- a heretic
d- a bad filmmaker
e- all of the above

What made me post about this was the excellent use of film stills on page one of this thread by Knight of Gondor. Using the exact stills from the film, he shows that the distance between where Denethor catches fire to the distance where he plunges to the ground was impossible to cover by a man engulfed in flames. I congratulate him on his effort. It is honest, straight forward and can be checked and rechecked for accuracy.

And then poster after poster piles on pretty much taking the position that Peter Jackson is indeed either a,b,c,d, or e from my above list. And what does this do? It reinforces preconveived beliefs that
a- the book is something on the level of Holy Writ and should never be altered, changed or deviated from, and
b- those LOTR movies sure did suck and lets laugh at them some more.

There is one other problem with this thread as I see it. I have just viewed the Denethor plunge scene on my DVD player. It is the same one as seen by the hundreds of millions of people who paid over a billion dollars to see it in the theaters. From the time Denethor starts his flaming run to the time he flies off the end of the rampway, exactly ten seconds of film time elapses. Ten seconds. What everyone in the theater saw was a man on fire for ten seconds. How many films over the years have given us a man on fire for far more of a length of time than that?

Theviewers of the film DID NOT SEE the series of stills that Knight of Gondor put up on the first page here with a description of the length of each area and an estimate of the time it would take to travel each. If we had seen Denethor completely run that entire length in flames and it take two to three minutes the result would have been absurd.

But that is not what was in the film and that was not what the viewers saw and that was not what was in the mind of those viewers. For them, it worked just like the rest of the film did.

Willing suspension of disbelief. That is at the heart of this. I use it when I read the books and I use it again when I view the films. I love both and cherish both.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I acknowledge your point about Gimli- although it is I suppose possible to imagine that mountain-bred, broad-chested Dwarves, like Sherpas and some Andean peoples, have much greater lung capacity and blood volume relative to body size than we do. I suppose when I read the books I envisioned the 'running' as being akin to the long-distance run/walk lope which Creeks and other Indians could maintain for hours and leagues, not the edge-of-endurance effort we see in competitive races.

And, again, I've done 20- 25 miles/day repeatedly in mountains with a sixty-pound pack and heavy boots. If one's objective is to keep moving for 10 or 12 hours, one sets one's pace to that level, not to 26-miles-as-fast-as-possible.

In any event, the Great Chase was *supposed* to be astonishing- wasn't Eomer duly amazed? "Wingfoot I name you." (It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).

Another 'goof' of Tolkien's of the same sort is his reliance on Army manuals to get marching distances right..but forgetting that Hobbits of course have a stride only about half that of fullsize humans. Frodo, Sam and Gollum must have been fair truckin' over parts of their journey!

On the 'hypocrisy' issue- I've never been very exercised over the likelihood of Plunging Steward, except for humor (and we all joke about the books, too). I just dislike the fact that Jackson eschewed the psychologically dramatic scene Tolkien wrote for another 'hey lookit me!' sfx shot.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

(It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).

But they ate only the best manflesh, which was fortified with time-released glycogen, amino acids and vitamins that could keep an orc on its feet running all day. It also contained a mild hallucinogen that made one think that a Balrog was in pursuit.

[Knight of Gondor]

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...

But he wasn't a Dwarf, but a big man; yes a big man. Actual height/stride not necessarily known.

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor... as cute as the Daniel Boone story is, it could be true as follows. 40 miles per day for 4 days equals 160 miles. 4 miles WALKED for ten hours equals 40 miles per day. So it could be done. At least on paper in theory.

Of course, that has not a darn thing to do with Gimli doing 140 miles in 3 days.

The bigger problem here is that JRRTolkien himself described the activity of Gimli and company as both running and striding. Both activities burn almost three times the energy and gylcogen of normal walking making it impossible to sustain beyond two to three hours for the untrained runner.

[Quempel]

I think this is where the problem lies for me. It’s not the plunge of Denethor that is so ridiculous to believe, it’s the fact that Jackson felt changing it from the book is what is unbelievable (to me). Yes I can suspend my disbelief with the plunge, what I have a hard time with is believing Peter Jackson thought his version of Denethors death was better than Tolkiens. It’s not the actual scene that is so hard to believe, it’s that Jackson actually thought he could do it better.

The bottom line is one can take Jackson’s billion dollar Oscar winning movie out of Tolkien’s world, and Tolkien’s world remains. However, one can not take Tolkien’s world out of Jackson’s work. If Tolkien had not written LoTR exactly what would have made Jackson his billions and won the awards, that’s right nothing. This is this and that is that.

Jackson interpreted Tolkiens work, and some of us backwards Appalachian inter-bread doofs actually think that Tolkien did a better job on the story. Call us backwater inbreeds dumb but we actually think the person who invented Middle Earth probably did a pretty good job with it. Some of us are not saying that Jackson did a bad job, but some of his changes were unbelievable, not because of the scene itself, but because the book simply did it better. Case in point Denethor’s death. It has absolutely nothing, nada, zilch to do with him running three miles on fire, it has to do with the fact that Jackson changed the scene completely, that is what is so unbelievable. The scene in the book was great, why change it. The change is what is unbelievable, not the actual scene. It has nothing to do with suspending our disbelief in fantasy, it has to do with our suspending our disbelief into thinking that Jackson actually interpreted the scene from the book they way he did.

To me at points in the movies and with some of the character changes Jackson did, I often wonder what book he read. I like the movies just fine, and it matters not to me how much money or awards they made and recieved, they are good movies. But they are Jackson interperation and some of his interpertations leave me wondering what I watched and why it was so far from the book when it didn't need to be.

[Sauron the White]

William ... thank you for the acknowledgement. Its appreciated. When you mention lung capacity that is one of those things that non-runners think is important because it is one of the first problems non runners encounter - being "out of breath". Funny thing is your lungs are probably the easiest physcial part of training since you are constantly taking in fresh air while you exercise unlike glycogen or muscle capacity which gives you the real trouble. I have heard many runners say their lungs could go for hundreds of miles , its the legs that kill them.

You trekking through the mountains is inspiring. I have a deathly fear of heights - or more accurately - falling from heights and can only admire mountains from the ground level.

Matthew - I acknowledge that Jackson did not invent Middle-earth. I give JRRT all respect and praise for that accomplishment. But in point of fact, legally, it did become Jacksons world to do as he pleased with it when New Line acquired the film rights and hired him to make the films. He did not build the house but he bought it and had the right to do what he wanted with it. So more semantics come into play.

I am not intending to compare anyones faith with the books. My point - and I am sorry if this was not made clear by me - was that after all these exchanges of points of view, debate, discussion and even argument, in the end it comes down to "if Tolkien wrote it and created it then its right in his world". Its an argument like having four aces up your sleeve in a poker game. Sure you can sit and play your hand against that person but in the end they will play the aces and you can never win. I thought of the same approach in discussions during my Catholic School education where the priests and nuns would willingly engage you in deep intellectual exchanges about all things but in the end the same aces up the sleeve were played. "It's this way because the Pope says it is and the Pope is picked by God and can do no wrong." Pretty much ends any discusssion right there as those aces come into play.

That has nothing to do with yours, mine or anyones religions beliefs. The comparison is only made because of the commonality of the unlevel power of it.

Quempel... you say

This is this and that is that.

I agree with you 100%. But I take it further. Like Robert DeNiro said in THE DEERHUNTER ....... "this is this.... this isn't something else.... this is this".

A book is a book and a film is a film. A book is not a film and a film is not a book. Each has its own properties, its own integrity and its own dynamics. Comparing them is like comparing apples to cinder blocks. In the end the experts astound no one by declaring that after exhaustive study apples do indeed taste better than cinder blocks ..... but cinder blocks make for better building material.

[Quempel]

For the record I like The Deer Hunter just fine.

And I will leave it at that since I do not agree that since Newline owns the rights to the story it makes it their story. I really don't want to argue sematics this day.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sauron- the lung cap is to me less significant than the 125% of 'normal' blood volume, which implies accelerated liver function and faster glycogen transfer to the muscles; it might also be the case that lembas is some sort of ultra-carb supplement as well. There may be faster filtering of lactic acid buildup as well.

In any event, the Hunters aren't moving at a marathon pace; that's objective given the time and distance, and no reason to think that they'd be burning calories at such a rate as to hit the energy wall at 20 miles.

[Sauron the White]

William ... not so sure about that. Please go to my post a few ago detailing the error in the numbers provided by Knight of Gondor. I ran some figures of my own and my best estimate was that they had to run 8 out of the 12 hours available to them during daylight each of the three days. Thats a measured pace of about 5.5 miles per hour or about a 10+ mile. That is probably too fast for the idea that they were both running and walking. But for purposes of discussion, lets go with that. For men of that size, carrying weapons and full clothing, wearing boots, and moving over various terrain, I would say they are burning calories at a pretty good rate.

Of course this line of thought can work against you and you probably see that coming. If we concede more walking to lower the heartrate and save on limited glycogen, then we increase the time necessary to complete the 145 miles. There will be a point where the could be walking at a moderate pace but would not have the time necessary to complete the task. But again, JRRT refers to both walking and striding - which is not walking at a moderate pace.

However, I concede I am NOT any kind of professional physiologist so I am going at this from somebody with 30+ years of running over 60,000 miles plus studying the subject as a hobby.

Again, I concede Legolas right from the start. And under the right conditions - which I am not sure were present - Aragorn being the tracker of his time - may have been able to rack up those kind of miles... but I am less sure of that. One day - okay. But I would hate to be his legs on day two and three. Gimli is a no brainer. No how - no way.

I am no expert on Tolkien despite multiple readings of the books over 30 years. Could you please tell me the properties of lembas as they are identified in the books? I have always thought of it as some sort of food alternative for short periods of time which gave a feeling of fullness and provided nutrition. I know of nothing which would indicate that it has any magical properties beyond that.

From the chapter Farewell to Lorien ............one of the elves who gives the lembas to Gimli
"One will keep a traveller on his feet for a day of long labour, ...."

Dwarves were used to hard manual labor. Their upper body muscles were well developed for various mining tasks and construction. But that is not running. Plenty of modern factory workers can work a ten hours shift at hard labor in a factory but could not run a half mile.

If Gimli had not trained in long distance running - or even a type of ME race-walking - his muscles would not have been able to absorb and utilize extra nutrition consumed on the road regardless. That would take months for his muscles to adapt to that exercise need. I remember them being in Lothlorien for a nice lengthy stay but recall nothing about an exercise program to acclimate them to running long distances.

Of course, some other poster already has the possibility covered when they claimed that just because the book does not say it did not happen could mean that it did. Again, the four aces up the sleeve - just a different sleeve.

Here is one thing I agree with on completely.

no reason to think that they'd be burning calories at such a rate as to hit the energy wall at 20 miles.

Exactly. A trained runner only hits that wall because of months of training. With an untrained, unprepared person of Gimli' size and build, the wall would hit him like the proverbial ton of bricks long before he ever hit double digit miles on the first day.