Good and evil

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Surely. But what I want to say is that when we speak especially of the Ring in particular, and not any other form of corruption by power, the Ring's effects are two: first, boosting the original lust for power, second, leaking Sauron's thoughts through. As I said, it would have to take millenia for Galadriel to start breeding Orcs, but ultimately, I believe it would come. That would happen at the moment, when the Ring would have destroyed the wielder's prior identity. Technically, the person would become a Nazgul himself.
(Please note - and I hope it was clear even from what I posted earlier, just want to make it sure - that I do not speak of profiling the evil in general, I speak only of the one particular case of the Ring, which had a little bit of Sauron's personality in it.)

But if evil can be beautiful then an evil Elf would be as bad (morally) as an Orc. Hence we're only dealing with outward appearance, so Galadriel could have beautiful Elves serving her who were as evil as Orcs. If she could corrupt their nature there would be no need to twist their outer appearance. In short, at that point of absolute corruption I'm not sure appearances would come into it. As I stated, it would be merely a question of aesthetics. Galadriel (or any other wielder of the Ring) would not have Sauron's appearance (she would not, for instance, be nine fingered. She would not necessarily ever develop an ugly form - those are, in Sauron's case 'accidents'). Hence, I don't see that just because Sauron lived in a tower that Galadriel necessarily would - however corrupted by the Ring she became. The choice of whether one lives in a massive tower or a great tree is not a matter of how 'evil' one is. Both are effectively 'towers' - one of stone, one of wood. If a 'beautiful' servant is as capable of evil as an ugly one, what difference does that appearance make?

The question is, what did Tolkien himself think - what did leak into his image of Middle-Earth, was it more like, as William said, the Augustinian Catholic point of view, or did he see it as a "Fairy story"? I believe he was not himself sure at certain points, or subconsciously, some things just pushed him to portray the evil as ugly (exactly as in the quote davem provided - a brilliant example!). Yet, I think at certain moments, like that in the "Mirror of Galadriel", he managed to get past this and show that even beautiful can be "evil".

He does - yet this is, to me, another case of the exception proving the rule. Lewis depicts evil as beautiful. One can see Jadis as equivalent to Galadriel with the Ring. Lewis seems far more concerned to show that physical beauty is neither here nor there in moral terms. For Tolkien outer appearance does seems to reflect inner 'grace' - in most cases. Hence, the 'spirit' reshapes the form. The more one succumbs to evil the uglier one becomes. Which is, of course, a potentially dangerous message. Beautiful people are good, ugly (dark, swarthy) people are evil. Not in every case, & the Woses are a clear warning against such a simplistic view - and yet, in M-e those who judged the Woses as evil because of their appearance could be said to be judging on general experience within M-e.

Yet, Tolkien actually goes against the 'lesson' of Fairy Stories, in that while the Rohirrim may think that the Elves of Lorien are wicked (or at least 'dangerous) that os shown to be a judgement based in ignorance. The 'fays' of Lorien are not evil at all.

Of course, this comes down to the rules of M-e - if the inner evil does ultimately manifest in outer ugliness then Galadriel would have to become ultimately foul & her realm ugly. But the question is whether this 'rule' would have to be obeyed? And if it does it leaves me, personally, with a bit of a dilemma - if ugliness = evil, then aren't we left with the conclusion that all those who are ugly in M-e are evil? And if we are to conclude that then we're very close to a bit of an unpleasant conclusion - that beautiful people are 'better' (morally) than ugly ones. It seems to me that Tolkien himself never came out clearly on this. He may have Frodo state that a servant of the Enemy would feel fouler but seem fairer, but (apart from the exception of Annatar & Morgoth in his early years) do we ever actually see a real example of this?