Split Personality?

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

--- the death scene of Boromir is both more dramatic and more emotionally touching in the film than in the book. I felt that making it a personal mano-on-mano thing with Lurtz and giving Lurtz larger and thicker arrows and the attitude and manner of an assassin was a very good way to focus all of the Uruk brutality into one central figure. The actual moments of death with the exchange between Boromir and Aragorn works better than the book.

--- the entire portrayal of Boromir in the film presents a far more likable character than the books did. I remember in the book - outside the Gates of Moria when Boromir is the one to distrub the Watcher with his silly throwing of stones. Hardly the smart move of the great warrior of Gondor. Jackson wisely made it a hobbit mistake. The moment on the snow where Boromir picks up the chain of the ring makes it a far more personal attraction that the audience can visibly see. I even liked the playful teaching Merry and Pippin to swordfight and then they get the better of Boromir. All that added to the character and improved the character of Boromir.

Can you be more ignorant and wrong? I do not think so. Sauron the White, your argument holds no substance. You are arguing that Boromir of the movies is better than Boromir in the books. WRONG. You can call me ignorant yourself if you like, but you are wrong. Boromir in the books is far more superior than PJ's mush ball Boromir. You obviously have little to no knowledge on the character, or at least have not studied his character. Maybe you should do that before making horrible misjudgments on Boromir.

I wish you would, before blurting out about Boromir, read the discussion Boromir88 and I had, in which he (Boromir88) kindly gave you the link. Here it is-

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...3&postcount=17

I would go on and on about defending book Boromir, the lordly and kind, and continue to tell you how wrong you are about movie Boromir's death scene being better than the book (for what Tolkien wrote is better) yet I see no need right now as Boromir88 laid it out on the table nicely.

You are never going to win this battle, defending the films against the books so irriationally. Say all you want about your cinderblocks. You are wrong. The book always rules out the movies. They are not supposed to be two different things, they are both "The Lord of the Rings" and the way that PJ chose to portray certain characters and events counter to the book does not rest well with the true Tolkien enthusiast, except for you and a small majority.

And alatar...I'm disappointed in you.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

You are never going to win this battle, defending the films against the books so irriationally. Say all you want about your cinderblocks. You are wrong. The book always rules out the movies. They are not supposed to be two different things, they are both "The Lord of the Rings" and the way that PJ chose to portray certain characters and events counter to the book does not rest well with the true Tolkien enthusiast, except for you and a small majority.

You've made Sauron the White's point rather well, and just when I was hoping that he was coming over to the Books side. Read the SbS to see my scene by scene criticisms regarding Peter Jackson's work where I quibbled on most everything; yet in all of that I hope to never ever to be on 'your' side as it's been the Movie-lovers' points of view that have extended my appreciation for both the movies and books.

And alatar...I'm disappointed in you.

Why? I never knew that you appointed me...

[Sauron the White]

Alatar - I read the very short article you linked to. It said nothing which changes the information I have been giving in this and the other thread on running and the necessity for extensive long distance training to run long distances. The only mention of glycogen is that is not exclusive and that other things can be employed in addition to the function glycogen serves to fuel the muscles of the body. "Limited use of free fatty acids" are not the same as fat people or a 4 foot 200 pound dwarf. Again, walking, be it on level ground or up a mountain, does not prepare one for the equal of 1.6 marathons a day for three days. The only thing that would do that is extensive training sessions over at least a three month period structured around long distance running possibly mixed with nearly equally strenuous power walking. . By my calculations, it would take a three months base base of nearly 18 miles per day to be able to run the 45 miles necessary in a single day. And then what happens on days two and three? Answer - you are flat on your back nursing a very tired, aching and depleted body which would not be ready for exercise for many more days. And what would it take to get up to that 3 month base of 18 miles a day. Most probably a year of serious training. Again, this is all mathematical and psyiological.

The article you linked to has no research stats beyond 10,000 meters or 6.2 miles. That was the limit of their research. The training methods for ultra-marathon distances does not change because of the discovery of using fatty acids. Again, not the same as fat people or fat dwarves. But I think you already knew that.

Matthew M ... since Alatar already said it, I will allow his words to speak for me

You've made Sauron the White's point rather well, and just when I was hoping that he was coming over to the Books side.

more from Matthew

Say all you want about your cinderblocks. You are wrong. The book always rules out the movies.

Well it seems that indeed you have all four aces up your sleeves. You will willingly engage in playing with me and others but in the end you can always play your aces as you have now done. Since the books will always triumph in any discussion, any debate, any difference of opinion, we might as well all just shut up and go home right now.

more from MatthewM

They are not supposed to be two different things, they are both "The Lord of the Rings" and the way that PJ chose to portray certain characters and events counter to the book does not rest well with the true Tolkien enthusiast, except for you and a small majority.

Regardless of your opinion, you cannot change reality. A book is one thing. A film is a different thing. In this case, the subject matter is the same, however, they are clearly not the same thing. And how is it that you speak "for the true Tolkien enthusiast". What is the litmus test for being "true"? I suspect I know the answer to that one. Were you elected or appointed to this position? Or perhaps self- appointed? And how did you determine that a "small majority" agreed with the Jackson films and me? Please show me the stats on this as many here would find them most illuminating.

It is most interesting that cooler heads here and myself seem to be able to find some middle ground on these issues. But you come along and we go back to square one with the Defenders of the Holy Word denying even the possibility of value in the Jackson films.

As Alatar said - you prove my point for me. Thank you MatthewM.

[Folwren]

My word! Why do things have to get so defensive and nasty?

Honestly, people, this isn't even on topic! If you want to discuss the three runners, why don't you do it on a thread made just for that? It seems that there is enough stuff to argue about!

This thread of Elempi's isn't even meant for whether or not the movie was accurate - or if the book was better. It was merely asking 'which do you prefer - the books' Gollum/Smeagol or the movie's - and why?' I don't believe Elempi meant for it to become a battle of whether or not PJ did a good job - because Gollum happened to be something that PJ did a particularly good job with.

Be reasonable and stop acting like children.

-- Folwren

[Quempel]

StW

I have been a long distance speed walker for some time now, and ok its not running, but I like my backbone and knee joints. Your assumption that Gimli wasn't physically able to run is just that, your assumption. No where in the book or the movie does it say that Gimli was unable to run. He would not have been able to keep up with over 6 foot tall Legolas and Aragorn simply because of stride length, but he is in shape. He had been walking and running with the fellowship for a long time, thus building up his endurance. And sorry StW, walking at a fast pace builds the same endurance as running, there are many medical studies that show walking does as much good as running, without the pain. So here is Gimli who has been out walking at a rather fast clip, in snow, over mountains, through mountains, and now all of the sudden he is so out of shape that he can't do anything.

The other flaw in your argument is that you are applying modern day human standards to non-human. Gimli is not human, he is a dwarf. You assume that Tolkien’s dwarfs fall under the same standards of humans, and Tolkien clearly distinguished the differences between the races in middle earth. Dwarfs did not have the same physical characteristics as humans. Same as humans did not have the same characteristics as elves. In fact the only paring of human with other races were with elves. There are no hobbit dwarf mating, no human hobbit mating. Perhaps this is because the DNA would not mix. Applying modern human standards to a fictional non-human dwarf is assuming that you know everything about Tolkien's dwarfs. The same standards you believe you know about the human body and running can and possibly do not apply to Dwarfs.

By the way are you a trained doctor? Or just a runner? There is a difference between a doctor who has spent years studying the human body and a lone runner who has only his own experiences to draw upon. It's like saying since you fix your own car you are certified mechanic.


And one more question, are you on Pete's payroll? Your disdain of Tolkien comes out loud and clear in your posts, and I have to wonder why you even read the books to begin with and simply didn't wait for Pete's much superior action flicks to come out.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel...

no I have never recieved on thin dime from Mr. Jackson. I have no disdain of JRRT - in fact I count LOTR as my all time favorite book. I truly love it. I have been reading it and rereading it for over 35 years now. I do however, view JRRT as a human being who created a book which has its own beauty, its own wonder and its own flaws. After all, it is a creation of a flawed human being and we are all in that category. Divine perfection is not achieved by any of us, JRRT included.

My entire point here began in the thread labeled as DENETHORS PLUNGE. In it, someone, I believe Knight of Gondor, went to great lengths to reproduce stills from ROTK to show the exact distance that Denethor had to run while on fire before his plunge off the edge. It was concluded that this would have take at least three minutes to complete and thus was impossible for a man to do while being consumed in flames.

Fine. He did a good job and was technically correct in his findings.

I pointed out two things: one, we only see Denethor on fire for a total of ten seconds in his run not three minutes - so what the audience saw was a ten second sprint - something they have seen many times in many movies with people on fire for far longer durations. Two - what ever happened to willing suspension of disbelief? You know what that is right? Its what every fantasy, horror and science fiction tale needs to survive beyond the "that cannot really happen" statement from viewers who apply actual science and reality to these type of tales.

None of us could enjoy the LOTR as a book or as a film if we did not employ a healthy dose of willing suspension of disbelief.

My point was a simple one: Why is it that when it comes to the books, many here can willingly engage in suspended their disbelief and just go with it - while at the same time - doing what Knight of Gondor did in the previously mentioned thread, applying reality and science to mock and ridicule the films?

In fact, when something in the books is criticized for not being feasible, even in the confines of a fantasy world, many here go to great lengths to come up with all manner of intellectual exercises to show that Tolkien could never have made a mistake. But when it comes to Jacksons films, its a whole different ballgame with a whole different set of rules.

I see that as a hypocritical double standard.

I merely used the example of Gimli not being able to run 140 miles in three days as an obvious hole in the book. As predicted by myself, many Tolkien book enthusiasts came up with all manner of intellectual explainations to show why a four foot, 200 pound dwarf, in heavy boots and carrying heavy weapons, with no long distance running training, could accomplish what a marathon runner could not do with months of training.

You still cling to this fiction. Your latest tact is that Gimli is not human and thus all bets are off. I refer you to this site

http://www.answers.com/glycogen?cat=health

If you read the article about glycogen and how muscles utilize it you will read that it applies not only to people - of which I thought Gimli was one - but to all animals as well. Somewhere in there is Gimli. Or is he such an alien creature that all normal rules of muscles do not apply to him. Thats a pretty big loophole if you are going to maintain that.

Even in a fantasy novel such as LOTR there is an internal logical structure that applies to its inhabitants. It is not by job to show you that Gimli DID NOT TRAIN. How does one point to what is not there? Proving a negative comes to mind. It is your job to demonstrate that he did. The book gives us no evidence that Gimli engaged in the type of long term long distance running or even race walking that is necessary to rack up the kind of miles that Tolkien uses. Tolkien gives us no evidence of it. Its simply not there. If it is please quote me the edition, the chapter and the page. I will be glad to read it.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Even in a fantasy novel such as LOTR there is an internal logical structure that applies to its inhabitants. It is not by job to show you that Gimli DID NOT TRAIN. How does one point to what is not there? Proving a negative comes to mind. It is your job to demonstrate that he did. The book gives us no evidence that Gimli engaged in the type of long term long distance running or even race walking that is necessary to rack up the kind of miles that Tolkien uses. Tolkien gives us no evidence of it. Its simply not there. If it is please quote me the edition, the chapter and the page. I will be glad to read it.

Running? I have no idea if Dwarves are generally runners or not... but as regards their ability regarding stamina? Well, allow me to quote from the Silmarillion:

Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever.

From Chapter II of the Quenta Silmarillion proper: "Of Aulë and Yavanna".

Furthermore, from the Lord of the Rings, I quote with regards to Gimli's running:

'Well, after them!' said Gimli. 'Dwarves too can go swiftly, and they do not tire sooner than Orcs. But it will be a long chase, and they have a long start.'

'Yes,' said Aragorn, 'we shall all need the endurance of Dwarves....

--from the last page of the Two Towers, Chapter I: "The Departure of Boromir"

'Even I, Dwarf of many journeys, and not the least hardy of my folk, cannot run all the way to Isengard without any pause,' said Gimli. 'My heart burns me too, and I would have started sooner; but now I must rest a little to run the better. And if we rest, then the blind night is the time to do so.'

--from about the seventh page of the Two Towers, Chapter II: "The Riders of Rohan"

So the third day of their pursuit began. During all its long hours of cloud and fitful sun they hardly paused, now striding, now running, as if no weariness could quench the fire that burned them.

--from the same chapter, approximately page eight or nine of that chapter.

As you can see, it is quite clear that Gimli, a Dwarf, was a hardy and resolute member of a hardy and resolute species, and it is quite clear that there was a good deal of running involved, though not constantly. Within the internal consistency of Tolkien's world, it seems fairly clear that he envisioned Gimli running--and keeping up with the others. There is a difference between "never been trained" and "unable to do something". The former implies the lack of a teacher, which I will grant: Gimli probably never had a long-distance, mile-covering teacher. However, given that he is said to be a Dwarf of many journeys, and given that Dwarves don't ride horses, and given that Aragorn admires his Dwarven resiliency, I think the implication is that Gimli was quite capable of the feat.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by alatar

Why? I never knew that you appointed me...

My comment towards you was pertaining to your remark on Boromir from book to film.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Since the books will always triumph in any discussion, any debate, any difference of opinion, we might as well all just shut up and go home right now.

Please do!

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Regardless of your opinion, you cannot change reality. A book is one thing. A film is a different thing. In this case, the subject matter is the same, however, they are clearly not the same thing. And how is it that you speak "for the true Tolkien enthusiast". What is the litmus test for being "true"? I suspect I know the answer to that one. Were you elected or appointed to this position? Or perhaps self- appointed? And how did you determine that a "small majority" agreed with the Jackson films and me? Please show me the stats on this as many here would find them most illuminating.

Yeah, right, because your posts did not hint at anything doubting your belief in JRRT's work... (extreme sarcasm)

It is obvious that there are, here at least, few people who agree with your book bashing movie thumping opinions.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

It is most interesting that cooler heads here and myself seem to be able to find some middle ground on these issues. But you come along and we go back to square one with the Defenders of the Holy Word denying even the possibility of value in the Jackson films.

Touching. Funny enough, I happen to love the films. In fact, they are my favorite movies of all time. I am just not about to defend them over the books, and the things/characters/events wrongly portrayed in the films deserve talking and complaining about. Again, keep your apples and your cinderblocks. You can use me as an example to prove your relentless point if you wish, I care not.

It's also rather funny how my post toward you was concerning your skewed opinions of Boromir, and not so much on your flawless movie talk.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

As Alatar said - you prove my point for me. Thank you MatthewM.

You are very welcome, Sauron the White.

[Sauron the White]

from MatthewM

I happen to love the films. In fact, they are my favorite movies of all time. I am just not about to defend them over the books, and the things/characters/events wrongly portrayed in the films deserve talking and complaining about. Again, keep your apples and your cinderblocks. You can use me as an example to prove your relentless point if you wish, I care not.

Matthew - you are mistaken that I want you or anyone to defend one over the other. I am not picking the books over the films or the films over the books and I want nobody else to do that either. All I have asked for is one thing and only one thing: you employ your willing suspension of disbelief to aid in your appreciation and love of the book version of LOTR. That is great. Please also employ it when viewing the film version of LOTR. That is all I am asking.

[Quempel]

Dwarfs apparently, according to Aragorns qoute, also have high endurance. Is that not the main quality a long distance runner needs?

And you ask us to suspend our disbelief about the movies, yet are unwilling to suspend your own disbelief about Gimli.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel ... now you are aproaching wisdom. The only reason I brought up the entire Gimli running issue was to illustrate my point about willing suspension of disbelief and the necessity of being fair in its extension to BOTH THE BOOKS AND THE MOVIES. In doing so, I played Devils advocate and fought the fight to show how something in the books made little sense - at least to me based on my real world experience and knowledge. Knowledge which I believe Tolkien did not have.

I am more than willing to extend willing suspension of disbelief to the books. I have for the past 36 years of multiple readings. All I am asking is for the same courtesy for the films. I love both dearly. I really bothers me when I read the first page of the DENETHORS PLUNGE thread and I see the smugness, the ridicule, the "lets all pile on and show what a horses behind Jackson really is" attitude that comes in post after post. Oh sure, they will claim that its all in good fun. But only because its their favorite target.

ENDURANCE - yes runners have a special kind of it because they train for it. People who labor hard can also have endurance. It can also mean putting up with a lot of grief. Dwarves are described as a strong and hardy folk. There is nothing in the SILMARALLION or LOTR to indicate they prepared themselves to be ultra marathoners.

But that is not my point.

Does anyone out there see this?

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Please also employ it when viewing the film version of LOTR. That is all I am asking.

No.