Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

cesar.ewok · 09-20-2007, 03:29 PM

Hi, Edhel!

My guess is that the Prophecy shouldn't have been allowed to stand. Or at least few important elements of it: I don't really think that Tolkien would've kept the idea of making Túrin imortal -- and in the Prophecy he kills Morgoth with Gurthang, which was, however, destroyed and lost in the latest versions of the Tale of the CoH. Moreover, we know from the LotR that Sauron did not recover the finger that was cut by Isildur. If Morgoth had his legs (and arms too?) cut, he'd not be able to fight, once he was in that same condition of Sauron (and also of "his greater agents", as told in Ósanwë-kenta). That's what I think.

Findegil · 09-21-2007, 01:19 AM

I think that the Dagor Dagorath was never discarded. The second prophecy might have been but I would not sign such a statement. At least I think both should be discussed single handed and not together.

The Dagor Dagorath could still be valid concept in Tolkiens mind even when he skipped the second prophecy. So I will start my discussion with the Dagor Dagorath:
This phrase is as fare as I know not from the second prophecy but from a text in the chapter on the Isatir in Unfinished Tales. It is their given in short poem speaking about Gandalf. Since it is clear that the poem is much later then The Lord of the Rings it becomes clear that the Dagor Dagorath was at least at this time still in existence as a concept for the end of Arda.

For the problems that we have with certain elements in the second Prophecy I think we should look at a quiet different source about the end of Arda for potential answers: In the Ainulindale we are told that the end of the music, which certainly corresponds to the end of Arda (Marred - at least), came by a direct intervention of Eru. Eru is ever free to choose his agents as he had chosen Manwe as the main instrument of the second theme and Varda to carry the unsullied light of the flame of Anar into the world or Gandalf for rescuing what was left of the glory of Numenor against Sauron. As we see in Gandalfs example Eru has not any problem to resurrect someone from death, least of all a Man whose feä was with him after his death anyway. And would anybody doubt Erus ability to recreate the black-sword for his agent? So I think nothing really speaks against the second prophecy.

Respectfuly
Findegil

William Cloud Hicklin · 09-21-2007, 08:23 AM

Moreover, in its later rescension Turin is said to come not from Mandos- which would be problematical to say the least- but from 'the doom of Men'- which I take to mean beyond Ea, the Timeless Halls, and suggests to me at least the dissolution of boundaries at the Great End. And of course both Morgoth and Ancalagon would have to be in some way 'reincarnated' as well.

cesar.ewok · 11-27-2007, 05:37 PM

I wonder if you guys see a problem if I paste this thread in another community. May I?

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-28-2007, 06:55 AM

As long as you reference the original (perhaps by linking to this thread or at least providing the "coordinates") I see no problem.

Galin · 11-28-2007, 11:45 AM

If the myth as it was found in HME V was to survive in any way, I think Christopher Tolkien concluded, in any case, that it was not to be thought of as coming from Mandos.

Quote:

'Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.' JRRT

The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255).' CJRT

It is to be noted that JRR Tolkien never did a substantial rewrite of the end of the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s, specifically the passage in question. Later Tolkien did make cursory corrections to the (now) 'old version', however. Christopher warns that these revisions need not imply 'any sort of final approval of the content' (see his reasons in HME XI, The Later Quenta Silmarillion). In any case, these revisions include:

'Turin Turambar... coming from the halls of Mandos' (changed to) 'Turin Turambar... returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world'. (as noted by Mr. Hicklin already). In the margin JRRT wrote 'and Beren Camlost' without direction for its insertion. 'and she will break them [The Silmarils] and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees' emended to 'and he [Feanor] will break them and with their fire will rekindle the Two Trees.'

Aprroximately against the last two sentences of the paragraph (from 'In that light the Gods will grow young again...') Tolkien put a large X in the margin of the manuscript. There is also the introduction of a further subheading The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

Hmmm, did Tolkien abandon the Second Prophecy or not? With respect to Turin dealing Morgoth his death blow we find (in HME XII) a prophecy concerning Turin from Andreth the Wise-woman rather -- and here Turin will return at the 'Last Battle' at the end of the Elder Days and before he leaves the Circles of the World forever will deal Ancalagon his death-stroke (noting that it had earlier been Earendil, as was taken up into the constructed Silmarillion of course).

This idea dates from 1968 or later: Turin is no longer named 'among the gods' (1930), no longer given a place among the 'sons of the Valar' (1937) and is seemingly coming back to slay Ancalagon rather than Morgoth (according to prophecy anyway), and during the War of Wrath. Author's Note 7 to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (in Morgoth's Ring) is interesting:

Quote:

'It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.' JRRT

*note 19 '... in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333,... ) the Prophecy of Mandos.' CJRT

The Athrabeth itself probably dates to the late 1950s so this note is quite important in my opinion. Again, to note the Valaquenta here: 'if any change will come and the Marring be amended ... it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos' -- and the new prophecy of the 1960s regarding Turin indeed does not come from Mandos in any event, but from a mortal woman.

Only a part of a complicated subject in any case!

cesar.ewok · 11-28-2007, 05:12 PM

Ok, I'm a little confused now.

So Dagor Dagorath became the War of the Wrath, in which Túrin returns incarnated, and with his black sword slays Ancalagon? And the Armageddon is what is told in the account of QS? Then Túrin is supposed to come back in the War of the Wrath, die again, return again at the end of the days, and slay Morgoth?? And the Armageddon prophecy was not declared by Mandos??

I'm baffled.

09-20-2007, 03:29 PM	#1
cesar.ewok Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 25	Hi, Edhel! My guess is that the Prophecy shouldn't have been allowed to stand. Or at least few important elements of it: I don't really think that Tolkien would've kept the idea of making Túrin imortal -- and in the Prophecy he kills Morgoth with Gurthang, which was, however, destroyed and lost in the latest versions of the Tale of the CoH. Moreover, we know from the LotR that Sauron did not recover the finger that was cut by Isildur. If Morgoth had his legs (and arms too?) cut, he'd not be able to fight, once he was in that same condition of Sauron (and also of "his greater agents", as told in Ósanwë-kenta). That's what I think. Last edited by cesar.ewok; 09-20-2007 at 03:35 PM.

09-21-2007, 08:23 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Moreover, in its later rescension Turin is said to come not from Mandos- which would be problematical to say the least- but from 'the doom of Men'- which I take to mean beyond Ea, the Timeless Halls, and suggests to me at least the dissolution of boundaries at the Great End. And of course both Morgoth and Ancalagon would have to be in some way 'reincarnated' as well. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

11-28-2007, 06:55 AM	#5
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	As long as you reference the original (perhaps by linking to this thread or at least providing the "coordinates") I see no problem. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

09-21-2007, 01:19 AM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I think that the Dagor Dagorath was never discarded. The second prophecy might have been but I would not sign such a statement. At least I think both should be discussed single handed and not together. The Dagor Dagorath could still be valid concept in Tolkiens mind even when he skipped the second prophecy. So I will start my discussion with the Dagor Dagorath: This phrase is as fare as I know not from the second prophecy but from a text in the chapter on the Isatir in Unfinished Tales. It is their given in short poem speaking about Gandalf. Since it is clear that the poem is much later then The Lord of the Rings it becomes clear that the Dagor Dagorath was at least at this time still in existence as a concept for the end of Arda. For the problems that we have with certain elements in the second Prophecy I think we should look at a quiet different source about the end of Arda for potential answers: In the Ainulindale we are told that the end of the music, which certainly corresponds to the end of Arda (Marred - at least), came by a direct intervention of Eru. Eru is ever free to choose his agents as he had chosen Manwe as the main instrument of the second theme and Varda to carry the unsullied light of the flame of Anar into the world or Gandalf for rescuing what was left of the glory of Numenor against Sauron. As we see in Gandalfs example Eru has not any problem to resurrect someone from death, least of all a Man whose feä was with him after his death anyway. And would anybody doubt Erus ability to recreate the black-sword for his agent? So I think nothing really speaks against the second prophecy. Respectfuly Findegil

11-27-2007, 05:37 PM	#4
cesar.ewok Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 25	I wonder if you guys see a problem if I paste this thread in another community. May I?

11-28-2007, 05:12 PM	#7
cesar.ewok Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 25	Ok, I'm a little confused now. So Dagor Dagorath became the War of the Wrath, in which Túrin returns incarnated, and with his black sword slays Ancalagon? And the Armageddon is what is told in the account of QS? Then Túrin is supposed to come back in the War of the Wrath, die again, return again at the end of the days, and slay Morgoth?? And the Armageddon prophecy was not declared by Mandos?? I'm baffled.